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Hungarian - January challenge thread | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Multilingual Lounge |  | |
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5139 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes  Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 201 of 1549 06 March 2011 at 10:57am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I think you misread my question, the answer is yes. You still answered it though! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 4863 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 202 of 1549 06 March 2011 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Yes, you are right... :-))) I feel that I didnt give this info about Hungarian passive in a systematic way so I will write it soon in a more comprehensible form. I dont know about you, but when I want to learn something, I like always to understand the background of the new information. If I understand what is the reason behind something, then I am able to learn it better. So will try to give you some practical advices about passive and and some background info. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 4863 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 203 of 1549 06 March 2011 at 1:33pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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1. The good news is that you can forget about passive voice in Hungarian verbs. Passive voice in Hungarian verbs is virtually out of use. There are only remnants of it in present day Hungarian.
2. Nevertheless, it is important to be able to recognize the passive, as it was used in written form until the middle of the 20th century, and in spoken form until the end of the 19th century. The main way of forming passive was addig –tatik/-tetik or –atik/-etik to the verbs main form. For example: csináltatik, engedtetik. Also there were passive verbs with a simple –ik ending. Originally in the Old Hungarian language (10th-15th century) all ikes verbs were passive! Later ikes verbs lost this feature. 3. All verbs that are remnants of the passive verbs (-tatik/-tetik, -atik/-etik and –ik) and that are used in present day language are now considered active voice. For example – as Chung gave this good example – születik is originally the passive voice of szül, but now it is considered a normal, active voice verb. The same can be said about all similar verbs, as for example látszik (originally the passive voice of lát), törik (originally the passive voice of tör). In all other cases their use is archaic a can be seen only in a few cases (as my example "dicsértessék"). 4. There is a new tendence in the Hungarian language to revitalize the passive voice. This is done by adding –ódik/-ődik to the verb. However it is used only with a few verbs and is considered somewhat “strange” by most native speakers. You need to know this, in order to be able to recognize this form, but you can use plural 3rd person instead of this new passive form. 5. The most common way for expressing passive constructions in Hungarian is by using plural 3rd person. Amikor a metrót megépítik, én már 50 éves leszek. "Amikor a metró megépül, én már 50 éves leszek" has a passive sense, but the verb is not considered passive voice, it is a reflexive verb. 6. The second most common way for expressing passive sentences is by using van + adverbial participle. Amikor a metró meg lesz építve, én már 50 éves leszek. Originally this form was limited to transitive verbs with the verb expressing the state or the condition of the subject, and it was used mainly in written language, but now its much more frequent both in written and spoken language, with many verbs, both transitive and intransitive, even when it doesn’t mean the state or condition of the subject. Language purists consider this way of speaking as “anti-Hungarian”... :-))) Maybe you know, in Hungary there are two big “hostile” “parties” in linguistics: the language purists and the language positivists. The purist party consider the other party as “anti-Hungarian”. And the positivist party consider the other party as “pseudo-science” and “charlatans”. I think it is obvious that I am a supporter of the positivist party... 7. Something very important! The causative verbs. Many people with non-native Hungarian language tend to mix up the passive and the causative verbs. In reality they are formed in a very similar way: causative verbs are formed by addig –tat/-tet, but they are not ikes, so the difference between causative and passive is that in the first case there is no –ik. The meaning of the passive and the causative verb is totally different. Causative verbs are used in present day Hungarian very frequently, both in written and spoken language. While active verb means that the subject does something and passive verb means that something is done to the subject, causative verb means that the subject makes somebody to do something for him. For example when the toilet is broken and I need to fix it, if I say “Megcsinálom a vécét”, it means that I personally will fix it, but if I say “Megcsináltatom a vécét”, it means that I won’t do anything personally but I make someone (a plummer probably) to come and fix it. I hope it was clear. If you have questions, ask. Edited by maxval on 06 March 2011 at 2:01pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 4863 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 204 of 1549 06 March 2011 at 2:50pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I forgot something. There is a tendency in "official" style written language to express passive sentences with nouns formed from verbs (with the ending -ás/-és) and the verb kerül, talál, nyer, etc. For example: A probléma megoldást nyert = A problémát megoldották = A probléma meg lett oldva (The probleme was solved) A film bemutatásra kerül = A filmet bemutatják = A film be lesz mutatva (The movie will be shown) A kérelem meghallgatásra talált = A kérelmet meghallgatták = A kérelem meg lett halgatva (The petition was heard) 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5139 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 205 of 1549 06 March 2011 at 5:50pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
That's good news, one less thing to have to worry about!
I've noticed this, I remember using 'kezdődik' in one of my essays and you told me it was passive. Does this mean that this word seems strange to most native speakers? Would you only use the 'kezd' form?
Just a correction for you in English, we say 'GET someone to do something' in this case. If you say 'make someone do something' it's like you're forcing them to do it.
I think it's all clear, I'll just need to re-read it a couple of times to memorise it. Thanks for all your effort! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 4863 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 206 of 1549 06 March 2011 at 6:24pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
No! I have to correct myself. There are a few verbs of this type that are commonly used as kezdődik, folytatódik, végződik, etc. However in these cases the "passive" sense is not perceived as such by a native speaker. These verbs sound "strange" only when there is a clear "passive" sense, as for example íródik, csinálódik, etc. I have one strange advice: if you find a verb with -ódik/-ődik in the Hungarian-English dictionary as a separate entry, than it is a "normal" verb, but if you dont find it and you try to form it by adding -ódik/-ődik, then better dont use it! :-)
OK, thanks. I was not sure if it is "get" or "make" or something else... For example in Spanish and Bulgarian there are no causative verbs at all, all verbs can be used in the causative sense too. Edited by maxval on 06 March 2011 at 6:25pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5139 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 207 of 1549 07 March 2011 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Szia Maxval
Ha neked nem baj, néhány kérdésem van a magyar nyelvről. Minden kérdés törteneteimtől (első öttől) van. 1. Írtad 'azaz', ez jelent 'these'? 2. Mikor használnak 'gondol' és mikor 'gondolkozik'? 3. You corrected one of my sentences as'Most tanítom vagyok, az angol nyelvet tanom', nem értem miért. I thought 'tanít' was a verb which would make the first part 'Now I teach I am', and if 'tanít' is a verb then when do I use 'tanom' and when 'tanítom'? 4. Are there any rules for word order with verbs with prefixes? For example you corrected one sentence to be 'itt ébresztem fel', how do I know whether to prefix 'fel' or leave it seperate? I know you said this is very hard for foreigners to grasp but I'd like to try. 5. I've learned recently that 'ik' verbs in the first person singular are always conjugated in the definite form, but there are several cases where you didnát correct this mistake. Is this just because there were too many mistakes so you let that one go or am I misinformed? For example I wrote haragszok and leyuhanyozok but you didn't correct them. 6. I don't quite understand the verb 'to feel' in Hungarian. How do you conjugate 'érzi magát'? 7. What does 'gond' mean in the sentence 'az idő nem gond'. I guess it means 'time doesn't matter' and in that case what is the difference between 'gond' and 'baj'? Thanks in advance for your answers. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 4863 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 208 of 1549 08 March 2011 at 6:53am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
No. Azaz means namely. These = ezek. Those = azok.
Gondolkodik - somebody makes intellectual actions in order to come to a conclusion about something. Gondol – the separate intellectual actions that are part of gondolkodás. Examples: Gyakran gondolkodom vajon van-e élet a Marson. Azt gondolom, hogy a Marson van élet.
It is conjugated as any other verb… You conjugate both the verb and the object too. As there is a definite object, there is of course only definite conjugation. Present indicative: Sng. 1. - Érzem magamat Sng. 2. - Érzed magadat Sng. 3. - Érzi magát Pl. 1. - Érezzünk magunkat Pl. 2. - Érzitek magatokat Pl. 3. - Érzik magukat Past indicative: Sng. 1. - Éreztem magamat Sng. 2. - Érezted magadat Sng. 3. - Érezte magát Pl. 1. - Éreztük magunkat Pl. 2. - Éreztétek magatokat Pl. 3. - Érezték magukat Future indicative is obvious, I wont write it here. Present conditional: Sng. 1. - Érezném magamat Sng. 2. - Éreznéd magadat Sng. 3. - Érezné magát Pl. 1. - Éreznénk magunkat Pl. 2. - Éreznétek magatokat Pl. 3. - Éreznék magukat Past conditional is obvious, I wont write it here. Present imperative: Sng. 1. - Érezzem magamat Sng. 2. - Érezzed magadat Sng. 3. – Érezze magát Pl. 1. - Érezzük magunkat Pl. 2. - Érezzétek magatokat Pl. 3. - Érezzék magukat Edited by maxval on 08 March 2011 at 6:54am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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