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Hungarian - January challenge thread | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Multilingual Lounge |  | |
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 4863 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes  Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 905 of 1549 27 November 2011 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Then you need to say that! Közben az emberek a ködben nézték és várták az alkalmat a támadásra. But it is not OK yet, as "néz alkalmat" is nonsense. Az alkalom nem egy furcsa madár, hogy nézegessük... :-) Az alkalmat nem nézni szokás, hanem várni vagy kihasználni. Tehát: "Közben az emberek a ködben várták az alkalmat a támadásra.", vagy ha nagyon akarod a nézést: "Közben az emberek a ködben néztek és várták az alkalmat a támadásra." (nem néztÉk tehát, hanem néztEk, ez nagyon nagy különbség!), de még így is kicsit furcsa, jobb lesz ha a "néz" szó helyett mást használunk: "Közben az emberek a ködben figyeltek és várták az alkalmat a támadásra.". 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 4863 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 906 of 1549 27 November 2011 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Dont be afraid. This happens only with pronouns, and only with a few pronouns. Lets see! Examples with pronouns and word constructions that include pronouns. It DOES NOT happen with: 1. personal pronouns: * én asztalom - én asztalom alatt * én - alattam 2. reflexive pronouns: * magam asztala - magam asztala alatt * magam - magam alatt 3. reciprocal pronouns: * egymás asztala - egymás asztala alatt * egymás - egymás alatt 4. possesive pronouns: * enyém - enyém alatt * (construction not possible) 5. interrogative pronouns: * melyik - melyik alatt * melyik asztal - melyik asztal alatt 6. relative pronouns: * amelyik - amelyik alatt * aelyik asztal - amelyik asztal alatt 7. indefinite pronouns: * valamelyik - valamelyik alatt * valamelyik asztal - valamelyik asztal alatt 8. negative pronouns: * semelyik - semelyik alatt * semelyik asztal - semelyik asztal alatt 9. general pronouns: * akármelyik - akármelyik alatt * akármelyik asztal - akármelyik asztal alatt So it happens only with demonstrative pronouns, and even not with all of them - used only with a few demonstrative pronoun construction showing "place", like English this/that and similar: * ez az asztal - ez alatt az asztal alatt * az az asztal - az alatt az asztal alatt - in case of other demonstrative pronoun constructios is not used: * olyan - olyan alatt * olyan asztal - olyan asztal alatt, - it is not used either with a few archaic demonstrative pronouns: * ama, eme, amaz, emez, azon, ezen (the last two are used even today in higher style in writing, I use them frequently) So you need to remember only "ez" and "az". You will ask: why it is doubled? I think that it is because "az" may mean both "the" and "that", so if it was "az asztal alatt" it would be interpreted as "under the table" and never as "under that table". The solution is to produce a different construction by doubling the postposition, so it can be obvious that this is "under that table" "az alatt az asztal alatt". And the use of "ez" is an analogy to "az". But this was only my hypothesis, I didnt check this in historical grammar! Edited by maxval on 27 November 2011 at 7:53pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5139 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 907 of 1549 28 November 2011 at 11:48am | IP Logged | ||||||||
In English I would simply have said - 'Meanwhile the people in the fog were watching and waiting for their opportunity.' It was supposed to have a subtle, ominous meaning, that's why I didn't add the extra detail. You're right that obviously I should stick to clear Hungarian because my level isn't good enough to express subtleties like that. I didn't mean that they were watching their opportunity, but rather that they were watching the 3 travelers. The other thing that might have helped understanding of my sentence is that when they were speaking Irish Gaelic, they were discussing their plan of attack. I forgot that obviously people wouldn't translate this and so wouldn't realise that they had this plan. Edited by hribecek on 28 November 2011 at 11:53am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5139 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 908 of 1549 28 November 2011 at 11:50am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Thanks for the explanation, I believe your theory about why, it makes good sense! :)) I'm glad this is only a small new rule for me to learn. I hope I can remember it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 4863 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 909 of 1549 28 November 2011 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
OK. But your sentence meant that they were watching the opportunity. There was "nézték" and after that there was an object "alkalmat". If there were simply watching around, then it is "néztek". It is very important to understand the difference between indefinite and definite conjugation, as you can see in this case! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 4863 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 910 of 1549 28 November 2011 at 1:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
And something I forgot to say yesterday! In these cases "ez" and "az" ("az" as demonstrative pronoun only!) become "e" and "a" before postpositions that begin with a consonant! Examples: ez az asztal + ALATT = EZ alatt az asztal alatt az az asztal + ALATT = AZ alatt az asztal alatt but: ez az asztal + FELETT = E felett az asztal felett az az asztal + FELETT = A felett az asztal felett 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 4863 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 911 of 1549 28 November 2011 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
And something different and interesting. Hungarian is the only Uralic-Altaic languaage that has article. And the Hungarian article was developed from the demonstrative pronoun "az". Originally the only definite article was "az", used before all words, beginning with both vowels and consonants. Later it was shortened to "a" when it is before a consonant. In texts from the 19th century you can still find "a'" with an apostrophe after "a", when using the article before words beginning with a consonant. This is very interesting that in Spanish the situation is very similar. In Latin there were no articles, and the Spanish articles are in reality from Latin demonstrative pronouns. "Él", "la", "lo" come from "ille", "illa", "illud". And "los" and "las" come from the Plural Accusative forms of ille and illa - "illos" and "illas". I dont know the history of the English "the", but maybe it has also something in common with "that", but I dont know. Maybe you know more about English historical grammar. Edited by maxval on 28 November 2011 at 2:03pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5139 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 912 of 1549 29 November 2011 at 9:27am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Unfortunately I don't know the history of 'the' but I expect you're right. What about other Germanic languages? Have they always had articles? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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