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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 3369 of 3959
09 September 2013 at 9:57am | IP Logged 
Contrairement à Vermillon je n'ai pas vécu en permanence en France (seulement été en vacance là) et le français n'est pas ma language maternelle, donc il faut que je contrôle ce que je dit dans les dictionaries et grammaires. Et ces sources sont largement basées sur la langue écrite. En effet on pourrait dire la même chose de moi-même et de mon langage. Cela pourrait expliquer la préférence de Vermillon pour l'indicatif (surtout au singulier), tandis que je suis sous l'influence d'une forte prédilection pour les tournures rares et précieuses.

"Childhood" in Danish actually is "barndom" with an ordinary 'a'. Btw: The 'ø' in the plural ("børn" = 'children') actually represents a phonetical change caused by the ending -u in Old Norse (going back to Proto-Norse), and it still remains intact centuries after that ending disappeared. Just as the streets in old medieval towns still run where they were laid out a thousand years ago, even though none of the individual houses have survived. The "-dom" in "barndom" and "-dømme" in "kongedømme" must also be the result of old long forgotten processes whose effects lived longer than the processes themselves.

PS: for a dissenting voice concerning the socalled u-Umlaut, see this paper from the Linguistic conference in Reykjavík in May 2013, where the blame for the 'ö¨ion Modern Icelandic and 'ø' in Danish is squarely put on factors surviving from Proto-Nordic.

Edited by Iversen on 09 September 2013 at 1:21pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 5246 days ago

9078 posts - 16471 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 3370 of 3959
10 September 2013 at 12:31am | IP Logged 
CA: Jo vaig visitar Mallorca per la primera vegada en l'any 2011, i quan he dit al receptionista que la llengua catalana no'm era totalment estranyera va aparèixer un senyor mess vell que em parlava en el seu dialecte - i jo gairebé no l'ha entendit! Pero desprez d'alguns minuts penibles jo me podia adaptar a la seva espècie de català. Més tard he vist en Palma alguns cartells i senys en catalan, on es podia veure les diferències dintre la català mallorquina i la català dels gens barcelonins que me pare massa coneguda desprez de diversos vitajes i molts estudis.

Hi ha rondaies breves i rondaies llargues, i les darreres ten tots el trets caracteristiques de les contes de altres països - com per eixemple el nombre 3 i també la fascinació amb reialesa i velles jaietes i aucells cantants. En "La Bella Ventura" hi ha tres Germanes, cadascuna de les quals dóna a una vella captaire un bon tros de pa. I la vella diu a cadascuna de les Germanes que exactament a la mitjanit havia de cridar "La Bella aventura - quina serà ma bella aventura?" de la seva finestra, i llavors vagui escoltar una veu que predigui el seu destí. I exactament això succedia. Al primer la veu ha dit que ella s'havia de casarse amb el rei de Nàpols. I ell rey de Nàpols va venir en el seu carruatge a buscar-la i se casaren. La segona és la veu que diu que ella va a casar-se amb el rei de França. I també això s'ha passat com previst. A la tercera la veu va dir que havia de casarse amb "es ca negre sense nas" (a dog without a nose). A la mare de la noia aquesta cosa de cap manera no l'ha agradat, i volía que no surtia amb el ca, però finalment la noia es va inclinar davant la necessitat i ha seguit el ca fora. Pero aquest es el mon de l'aventura, i no pas un manual de zòofilia, i pertant el ca sense nas s'ha averiguat com a ningú altre que el fill maleït de l'emperador i l'emperadriu. S'ha curat al príncep en silenciant totes les campanes al país i ofegant a totes les aixetes, i se feren unes festes mai vistes quan Na Catalina va casarse com el ca sense nas redevenit home. I com diu la fórmula tradicionala dels contistas de Mallorca: ".. encara són vius si no són morts. I al cel mos vegem tots plegats".

Quina tonteria!


EN: I have found another old forgotten book at the backside of my bookshelf where I keep the stuff I bought during my study years in the 70s: "Rondaies Mallorquines", with fairy tales from Mallorca in the local dialect which differs from the continental variants in several respects, not least in the use of articles with an s- instead of the usual l- I remember that one of the traits which are quoted as proof that Sardic is particularly archaic is the use of similar s-articles, which according to the specialists go back to Latin "iste" instead of the usual "ille". I simply don't know whether they also are original on Mallorca, or whether they have been imported from Sardinian sometime later. Btw. there is a small Catalan enclave around Alghero on Sardinia, but it was only established around 1372, says the omniscient Wikipedia.

Edited by Iversen on 10 September 2013 at 3:08pm

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montmorency
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 Message 3371 of 3959
10 September 2013 at 11:09pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:


"Childhood" in Danish actually is "barndom" with an ordinary 'a'. Btw: The 'ø' in the
plural ("børn" = 'children') actually represents a phonetical change caused by the
ending -u in Old Norse (going back to Proto-Norse), and it still remains intact
centuries after that ending disappeared. Just as the streets in old medieval towns
still run where they were laid out a thousand years ago, even though none of the
individual houses have survived. The "-dom" in "barndom" and "-dømme" in "kongedømme"
must also be the result of old long forgotten processes whose effects lived longer than
the processes themselves.

PS: for a dissenting voice concerning the socalled u-Umlaut, see
this paper from
the Linguistic conference in Reykjavík in May 2013, where the blame for the 'ö¨ion
Modern Icelandic and 'ø' in Danish is squarely put on factors surviving from Proto-
Nordic.



Oops, careless of me. I think the spurious circle was a little splodge on my screen!
Time to clean both my screen and my glasses!

Thanks for the interesting extra information. The streets in the centre of the town
where I live are still laid out according to the medieval pattern, although almost all
of the buildings have changed. Only two churches and the few remains of an abbey go
right back, although there is one old house from about the 15th century or something
like that.


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tractor
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Studies: French, German, Latin

 
 Message 3372 of 3959
11 September 2013 at 8:01am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
(…] not least in the use of articles with an s- instead of the usual l- I remember that one of the
traits which are quoted as proof that Sardic is particularly archaic is the use of similar s-articles, which according to
the specialists go back to Latin "iste" instead of the usual "ille". I simply don't know whether they also are original on
Mallorca, or whether they have been imported from Sardinian sometime later.

They are also used in dialects on the Costa Brava in Catalonia.
1 person has voted this message useful





Iversen

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