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Esperanto a waste of time? | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Esperanto |  | |
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5802 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 57 of 351 11 November 2009 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
What you're thinking of is "Norn", previously spoken in the Northern Isles (Orkney and Shetland) and in the extreme North of the mainland, but now extinct. That was due to the Norse conquest of the West and North, although in the West, Gaelic retained the upper hand. Norn has undoubtedly let a mark on modern Scots, but Scots generally thought to owe more to the Old English of Northumbria, which picked up it's Norse via the Danes who had previously been conquered by the Norse. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 5942 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 58 of 351 11 November 2009 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Sorry to continue on a slight divergence to the main thread.
The influence of Norse, and Danish, is also experienced in Ireland. On the east coast the following were named by the Vikings. Howth (Hoved) - Head Dalkey (Dalk-Ey) - Thorn Island Leixlip (Lax-hlaup) - Salmon Leap Wexford (Weis-fjord) - Sandy Harbour Waterford (Vadre-fjord) - (?) harbour (I couldn't figure this one out) Thanks Cainntear for pointing out the existence of "Norn". I think Danish, or Swedish, should become the new Esperanto. Edited by DaraghM on 11 November 2009 at 6:02pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Hoogamagoo Diglot Newbie United States Joined 6342 days ago 14 posts - 70 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto | Message 59 of 351 11 November 2009 at 7:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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This is going to sound obnoxious, and I really don't want to sound like I'm ranting. Still, I might as well let it out.
I've known non-linguists, with little secondary language (one of whom was Korean) experience who took a 3 week immersion course in Esperanto and came back at what I'd consider an intermediate level. They could express themselves about almost any everyday life experience, using correct grammar. I've heard of, but not met, linguists who were able to get to a similar level in Esperanto inside of a day. Try that with Dutch. Esperanto has served me in a couple of ways. I've made a few contacts that I wouldn't have made without it (yeah, I know, big deal). I increased the vocabulary and the overall quality of my native English and if it helped me to squeak by in Italian and Spanish. I always find this the most enlightening study (from the wikipedia page on Esperanto) "a group of European secondary school students studied Esperanto for one year, then French for three years, and ended up with a significantly better command of French than a control group, who studied French for all four years. Similar results have been found for other combinations of native and second languages, as well as for arrangements in which the course of study was reduced to two years, of which six months is spent learning Esperanto" Here's a link to that study: ekparoli report The idea that Esperanto has no culture is weird. How do people define culture? Do Esperantists have to work together to erect a pyramid for it to count? On another note, Bridge languages have worked in the past. English itself has worked as a bridge language and yet Welsh, Irish, Gaelic, Cornish and Manx are all still with us today, after centuries of English. Some Indigenous Americans used a sign language that made it possible for them to communicate without learning the other tribe's language. It wouldn't even be as expensive as the metric system change that the world (well, everybody except my proud nation), has committed to. You just add Esperanto as an optional course in public schools. It can't hurt them to be fluent in a language. Most secondary students would be advanced in a second language inside of a year, how about that? Is that really so awful? Instead of translating all of the official EU docs into every language, just translate into Esperanto and let every member use an Esperanto translator. That might even save some cash. Not only that, but using a common language that translates very neatly into other languages (please try it before you say it ain't so), might even have some advantages. This thread woke up this week when somebody whined that they regretted learning Esperanto. Come on, seriously? How many of you can say you honestly regretted learning anything? I've studied some frivolous things in my life, but I can't imagine regretting it. Anyway, what's the big deal? It's painless and could have some benefits. It wouldn't cost much, there are enough passionate Esperantists that they might even take on the necessary jobs for free or almost free. I just don't understand why people freak out when they hear "Esperanto." Would somebody PLEASE tell me why the idea of using an artificial conlang that can be learned in under a couple of weeks is really such an awful waste of time? ugh. Never mind. It's a big fat rant. I guess I'm grouchier than I thought. I won't take it personally if you ignore me and just carry on. Edited by Hoogamagoo on 11 November 2009 at 8:13pm 22 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| alang Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 7012 days ago 563 posts - 757 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 60 of 351 11 November 2009 at 7:57pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I can only express my opinion and I thought it was worth it. First was interest, then gained friends and used the Pasporta Servo with success. Definitely easier to learn. If somebody has an interest and curiosity, then explore and check it out. If there is no interest, then that is good too. It is voluntary and that is what I like about it. When I had French classes in elementary school it turned me off from languages in general. Until I was empathetic to a foreigner who was made fun of, because he did not speak English and vice versa in another country. It might not be for some, but I can honestly say that I have not regretted it. Which by the way I have many regrets, but learning Esperanto is not one of them. Heck even the regrets are not real regrets, because a person hopefully learned and gained something from them. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6230 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 61 of 351 11 November 2009 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Extremely. I've gotten a lot out of Esperanto. I'm not entirely convinced it's worth learning to an extremely high level (the reasons for why would turn into quite a long rant), but basic fluency in it is worth a lot to me. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5802 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 62 of 351 12 November 2009 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
It is commonly observed that learning one language helps you learn another, and while I've seen references to the studies you mentioned several times, what I've never seen clearly stated is that anyone has shown that Esperanto is any more effective than any other language in this regard.
I'm not sure it is painless. Personally, I'm avoiding learning Esperanto precisely because of its similarities to existing European languages. The relationships between form and pronunciation of words and grammatical markers across Europe have various threads, semi-regular and semi-consistent. Natural language change favours certain sound shifts and some just seem impossible. Esperanto was not written by a professional linguist -- the sound changes the good Doctor introduced to existing IE word roots are not part of those natural processes. My fear is that my ability to develop an intuitive feel for the European sound changes may be damaged by having these spurious, arbitrary forms in my head. I say fear -- it's unproven and is likely to always remain so. As it stands, the benefits of learning Esperanto are far too small for me to think that they outweigh the risk of learning languages that are, in real terms, more useful. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| QHealer Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5273 days ago 7 posts - 7 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Studies: Japanese | Message 63 of 351 21 November 2009 at 5:19am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I have a question, I am currently studying Spanish, in school and somewhat at home. My
parents speak Spanish, and I wish to learn it fluently. I've been reading here on this thread as well as online that Esperanto can help with other languages, especially Romance languages. Should I learn Esperanto first, as helping or motivation or should I just stick to Spanish then learn Esperanto then learn the other languages I feel like learning. Also I've heard that some people mess up and mix up languages, for example in Spanish and English, my Spanish teacher, mixed up factories with the Spanish word for it (i'm not completely sure but it's like fabrica or something) so she said "fabrics" Will that happen to me if I learn Esperanto, and not just like words, will I end up mixing up the whole language? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6230 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 64 of 351 21 November 2009 at 5:29am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Learn Spanish first; you're already in the middle of studying it.
It probably won't be an issue. People sometimes use words from one language in another if they don't know the word in the language they're currently speaking; for closely related languages or with people who speak both languages, this even makes sense, because it's likely to be understood and not interrupt the flow of conversation. Caring about this and getting to a reasonably high level in your languages makes it pretty much a non-issue, though some temporary mixing-up occurs for some people during learning. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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