Josquin’s Language Symphony (RU, IR, 東亜) (Language Learning Log) Language Learning Forum

Josquin’s Language Symphony (RU, IR, 東亜)
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Josquin
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Message 73 of 646

23 May 2012 at 12:09am | IP Logged

prz_ wrote:

Quote:

For the rest, you have to remember whether it is -ый/-ая/-ое/-ые or -ий/-яя/-ее/-ие.

Oh, long and short forms of the adjectives, I guess? The remnants of Old Church Slavonic :)

No, only long forms by now... But 'hard' vs 'soft' endings. Child's play for a Slav I guess, but for the stupid Germans that can't hear palatalization properly... Кошмар!
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Josquin
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Message 74 of 646

23 May 2012 at 12:23am | IP Logged

tarvos wrote:

У меня брат живёт в Новгороде

This sentence would not work grammatically, I think. You are introducing the fact that the brother lives in Novgorod, but you have to do that using a relative clause if you're using the construction with У меня. Why? Because the construction you use in that sentence already has a verb! What verb, you ask? It's implicitly understood, but: есть! It's so often left out of a sentence that you forget it exists. However, when you're constructing a sentence grammatically, even though the verb is not written, you cannot actually substitute another verb for it (the main verb cannot change to be живёт). So what you'd probably say in that case is something like:

У меня (есть) брат, который живёт в Новгороде. In this case, you enter который as a joker (and don't ask me why you use that and not кто, that's an intuition that you have to develop, кто just sounds off).

This sentence translates more as "I have a brother, who lives in Novgorod). Now the thing is by using a possessive pronoun (мой) you shortcut the whole problem, it really is simpler. So in colloquial speech I would expect it to be easier to just use a possessive instead of the (relatively more) complicated construction using У меня.

Hmm, interesting, because I copied that sentence from my textbook - and there it is even a subordinate clause within a question. Quote: Ты знаешь, что у меня брат живёт в Новгороде? So, I suppose it must be correct. I think Dr. Elena Minakova-Boblest will know what she's writing, and the native speakers who recorded the CDs seemingly didn't protest either.

I also thought of some kind of underlying relative construction, but maybe I'm overthinking the whole story. I supposed there might be a rule that one could only relate to relatives by у меня, but this doesn't seem to be the case either. In an exercise I did today, there's the sentence: Мой брат учится в школе, а я уже учусь в институте.

Maybe, I should simply accept it the way it is and go on with other things - like ordinal numbers...

Edited by Josquin on 23 May 2012 at 12:26am
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prz_
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Message 75 of 646

23 May 2012 at 12:33am | IP Logged

Josquin wrote:

No, only long forms by now... But 'hard' vs 'soft' endings.

As you can see, sometimes you know more than me even if it comes to Russian ;) Child's play? Not always... Especially when we come to more advance stuff like "when should we use the short and when the long form". Sometimes they have different meanings, so...
Will be funny ;)
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tarvos
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Message 76 of 646

23 May 2012 at 7:56am | IP Logged

In your sentence, у меня means more ("at my place") and then it's ok. But yeah, it's all just intuition and I could be wrong
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Марк
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Message 77 of 646

23 May 2012 at 9:12am | IP Logged

ть, дь can be really pronounced like ць, дзь, native speakers do not usually notice that.
But they must be soft, not hard ц.
About у меня. мой is possible here. У меня брат живёт в Новгороде sounds better.
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tarvos
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Message 78 of 646

23 May 2012 at 9:14am | IP Logged

I stand corrected.
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Марк
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Message 79 of 646

23 May 2012 at 9:30am | IP Logged

Josquin wrote:

prz_ wrote:

Josuin wrote:

Something I noticed by listening to my
recordings is that palatalized т and д sound very close to ц. At least there is some kind
of hissing that sounds very close to an s-sound, at least to my German ears. And although
I can perceive this special quality of ть and дь, I find it very hard to imitate.

Seems that the native Slav misses a lot of magic in Russian.

Oh, you can have some magic by trying to pronounce German soft 'ch' without making a
'sch' out of it. German 'ü' is also very popular as well as the '-er' sound [ɐ].

What is difficult in these German sounds?
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Josquin
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Message 80 of 646

23 May 2012 at 1:53pm | IP Logged

Марк wrote:

Josquin wrote:

prz_ wrote:

Josuin wrote:

Seems that the native Slav misses a lot of magic in Russian.

Oh, you can have some magic by trying to pronounce German soft 'ch' without making a
'sch' out of it. German 'ü' is also very popular as well as the '-er' sound [ɐ].

What is difficult in these German sounds?

Many foreigners don't master the distinction between sonft 'ch' [ç] and 'sch' [ʃ]. They tend to pronounce soft 'ch' as [ʃ], which is wrong.

'Ü' is [y] like French 'u'. Many people have a problem with that sound.

The dull '-er' sound [ɐ] like in 'Wasser' ['vasɐ] tends to be confused with normal 'a', which doesn't sound very good in German ears.

By the way, thank you for your help with the soft sounds and у меня!

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