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German: massive input in Berlin

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patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
Joined 2832 days ago

1546 posts - 3200 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 33 of 295
05 January 2014 at 6:56pm | IP Logged 
Looking at some of the examples in Atlas zur deutschen Alltagssprache made me realize how much variation in German there really is.

I've known for ages that Berliners pronounce "ich" as a hard "k-sound" at the end, rather than the the more general softer sound, but I hadn't realized that in the South they simply say "i" most of the time:



I've been going around wishing people a "Frohes neues Jahr", but much of the rest of the country has other things to say:



A christmas tree is a Weinnachtsbaum, or sometimes Tannenbaum in the North, but a Christbaum in the South:



A pancake is a Pfannkuchen (literally a pan-cake) in the North, but around Berlin/Brandenburg it's literally an Egg-cake:



Even the plural from of Mädchen (girl) varies enormously across the country:



I'll keep plugging away at my Hochdeutsch, but these maps do explain to me why sometimes words I pick up in books sound so weird to my NW-German wife. I am semi-convinced, for instance, that Harry Potter, while in Hochdeutsch, was translated by a Southern German.

This also clearly shows the infamous North-South divide in Germany. I read once that when the German states were united into a country, Bismark cleverly took half the lands that should have gone to Vienna, thereby weakening the power of the main rival to Berlin at the time. I don't know how true that is, but it's obvious from these maps that Munich has much more in common linguistically (and presumably culturally) with Vienna, than Berlin.

For what it's worth my cultural allegiances are strongly rooted in the North and East of the country.

Edited by patrickwilken on 06 January 2014 at 2:02pm

7 persons have voted this message useful



patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
Joined 2832 days ago

1546 posts - 3200 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 34 of 295
06 January 2014 at 2:53pm | IP Logged 
A bit of music from Berlin to cheer up a grey day: Dickes B - SEEED

Dickes - lit. thick - slang good (?)
B - Berlin

Dickes B, home an der Spree,
im Sommer tust du gut und im Winter tut's weh.
Mama Berlin - Backsteine und Benzin
- wir lieben deinen Duft, wenn wir um die Häuser ziehn.


1.

Der Asphaltboden zitterte es wummerte im Ohr
als ich an einen dicken Beat mein junges Herz verlor
seit damals gefällt mir die Stadt besser als zuvor
wenn ich durch Berlin-City cruise is Reggae mein Motor.

Ich singe auf dem Fahrrad, mal Bass und mal Tenor
zuhause dreh ich Sound auf, die Nachbarn ham Humor.
Die stehn auf frische Downbeats aus meinem Recordstore
- Concrete Jungle, Supersonic - Soundsystemkultur.

Wenn Party is, dann sind wir on the dance floor,
der Deejay macht den Vers und die Jarvis den Chor.
Du versinkst im Bass wie'ne Moorleiche im Moor,
es zwingt dich in die Knie, denn der riddim is Hardcore.

Wir shaken, was wir haben bis morgens 7 Uhr,
woanders gibt's 'ne Sperrstunde, bei uns die Müllabfuhr
- dann baun wir'n dickes Rohr, kommt dann schon mal vor,
und blasen dicken Smoke durchs Brandenburger Tor.

Chorus:

Dickes B, home an der Spree, ...

2.

Die Berliner Luft im vergleich zu anderen Städten
bietet leckersten Geschmack, allerbeste Qualitäten,
um Paraden zu feiern und exclusive Feten
- die Massen sind jetzt da, es hat sie niemand drum gebeten!

Früher ging's in Berlin um Panzer und Raketen,
heute lebe ich im Osten zwischen Blümchentapeten,
kümmer mich nicht allzusehr um Taler und Moneten,
baue hier und da'n Track, aber dafür'n Konkreten!

Coolnessmäßig platzt die Stadt aus allen Nähten,
aber wo sind jetzt die Typen, die auch ernsthaft antreten,
um ihr Potential, ihre Styles heiß zu kneten,
zuviel Kraft in der Lunge für zuwenige Trompeten...

Chorus:

Dickes B, home an der Spree, ...

3.

This a one name it nice reggae musik me say nice, nice
inna Berlin is just like a paradice, it nice
everybody say dem love di vibes, vibes
when the reggae play dem say dem feel allright
when the reggae play trust me ju nah fe worry,
everybody come the reggae vibes dem all a study
make we take a check up pan the crew dem way promote it.
cause a reggae well it come fe run the city.
every monday night you now say dat a escobar
coming from near me say you coming from far.
every tuesday night you now say dat a tanzbar.
everybody go dey want fe look like a star.
every wensday night you can go check out subground
way the reggae musik mash the whole place down .
black kappa voice comming through di mikrophone
an make me say one love to all of the sound
big up Barney Millah , Concrete Jungle crew dem
big up Panza, Supersonic crew dem
big up Alex an the Such A Sound crew dem
and make me say one love to the nex sound dem.
so we sing

Chorus:

Dickes B, home an der Spree, ...

Edited by patrickwilken on 06 January 2014 at 2:58pm

1 person has voted this message useful



patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
Joined 2832 days ago

1546 posts - 3200 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 35 of 295
09 January 2014 at 8:11am | IP Logged 
I am ironically finding HTLAL quite distracting to my goal of immersing myself in German, so while I love the discussions and community here, the I've decided to try to take a break for a while.

I have to visit family in February in Australia, and will have limited Internet access during that time, so I'll pop back in March. Or tomorrow depending on my willpower. :)

-----------

EDIT: OK. The break didn't work very well. :( But I am going to try to limit access to the Internet to the late afternoon/evening. Fingers crossed.

Edited by patrickwilken on 10 January 2014 at 4:38pm

2 persons have voted this message useful



Gemuse
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 2381 days ago

818 posts - 1189 votes 
Speaks: English
Studies: German

 
 Message 36 of 295
10 January 2014 at 8:30am | IP Logged 
patrickwilken wrote:

I ended up at one point doing the Goethe Institute courses from A1-B1, which while
expensive are regarded as very good, but nothing stuck.

The problem I had with language schools was that I was learning lots of grammar rules,
but I wasn't able to apply the rules in real life because I had very little vocabulary.
I wasn't comfortable enough with the language yet to actually care that much about the
grammar. I don't think I was alone in this. In the Goethe course, of my 15 co-students
about 13 seemed to have given up on learning German by the end of the six months we
studied together.


Were the Goethe Institute courses intensive course?
My class too had a crappy experience with them.
Which coursebooks did you follow?
1 person has voted this message useful



Gemuse
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 2381 days ago

818 posts - 1189 votes 
Speaks: English
Studies: German

 
 Message 37 of 295
10 January 2014 at 8:35am | IP Logged 
patrickwilken wrote:

my German had become sufficiently strong that I was able to read real e-books, at which
point I would grab sentences with words I didn't know from the Kindle (if you make a
note in the Kindle you end up with a text file you can edit and import into Anki). In
addition to sentences from books I read, I would go to the dictionary definition on the
Kindle and make a note of that as well and import the various example phrasings given as
separate cards into Anki.



Can a similar flow be done on Android?
And on a computer?
1 person has voted this message useful



patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
Joined 2832 days ago

1546 posts - 3200 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 38 of 295
10 January 2014 at 3:49pm | IP Logged 
Gemuse wrote:
patrickwilken wrote:

I ended up at one point doing the Goethe Institute courses from A1-B1, which while
expensive are regarded as very good, but nothing stuck.


Were the Goethe Institute courses intensive course?
My class too had a crappy experience with them.
Which coursebooks did you follow?


I was doing the night courses, so semi-intensive. We used the Hueber Themen Aktuell textbooks.

I found course books fine, but the course didn't suit me. It was too grammar intensive for my taste, and be honest because I was working I didn't have time to either learn the vocabulary efficiently after A1, let alone do the exercises. I think it's a basic problem with the night courses, as they made up of people who are working during the day, and the amount of time spent on each level is actually truncated so you cover the same amount of material in the same number of weeks as you could a full time course.

However, I don't think the Goethe Institute courses are particularly bad. I have been to cheaper schools with similar results. I have a universally low opinion of language schools in Germany. I think they fairly useless at getting you to a useful intermediate level, and once you are at an intermediate level you are better off accessing native materials directly, and so don't need the schools anymore.

You are living in Germany aren't you? If you are, a good tip is to join the local library. For 10 Euros per year I can borrow from any library in Berlin. You can get not only books, graphic novels, magazines, but also DVD and audiobooks. I borrow about a dozen DVDs at a time and just work my way through the material.

Gemuse wrote:
patrickwilken wrote:

my German had become sufficiently strong that I was able to read real e-books, at which
point I would grab sentences with words I didn't know from the Kindle (if you make a
note in the Kindle you end up with a text file you can edit and import into Anki). In
addition to sentences from books I read, I would go to the dictionary definition on the
Kindle and make a note of that as well and import the various example phrasings given as
separate cards into Anki.


Can a similar flow be done on Android?
And on a computer?


I have no idea how well it works with a phone/pc - never tried it. It should be easy enough to check. However, I recommend getting the cheaper Amazon e-reader. It's on offer for 50 Euros, and with a Collins English-German dictionary (8 Euros?) you are all set to start reading German books. That's no more than the cost of a week's German lessons even in the cheapest schools.

I don't know what level you are at now, but I was able to start reading real books after about six months starting at A1.

Edited by patrickwilken on 10 January 2014 at 3:56pm

2 persons have voted this message useful



geoffw
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 2987 days ago

1134 posts - 1865 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Yiddish
Studies: Modern Hebrew, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian

 
 Message 39 of 295
10 January 2014 at 4:10pm | IP Logged 
patrickwilken wrote:

I've known for ages that Berliners pronounce "ich" as a hard "k-sound" at the end,
rather than the the more general softer sound, but I hadn't realized that in the South
they simply say "i" most of the time:


I had thought this was strictly a Bavarian thing. I guess the old dialect continuum
effect left this in other local pre-Hochdeutsch idioms, as well. But I would question:
just how commonly does one hear these usages in public (outside of Bavaria)? I doubt it
approaches 100%, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a strong urban/rural split.

And the intro on this page seems to suggest that these variations, including saying "i"
statt "ich," are used when speaking supposed *Hochdeutsch* in the different regions,
but that was not so much my experience. I learned German in rural Bavaria (but near
Munich), and I ONLY learned to say "ich," for example. The usage of "i" seemed only to
come out for people in full-on Bairisch.
1 person has voted this message useful



patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
Joined 2832 days ago

1546 posts - 3200 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 40 of 295
10 January 2014 at 4:20pm | IP Logged 
geoffw wrote:
I had thought this was strictly a Bavarian thing. I guess the old dialect continuum
effect left this in other local pre-Hochdeutsch idioms, as well. But I would question:
just how commonly does one hear these usages in public (outside of Bavaria)? I doubt it
approaches 100%, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a strong urban/rural split.

And the intro on this page seems to suggest that these variations, including saying "i"
statt "ich," are used when speaking supposed *Hochdeutsch* in the different regions,
but that was not so much my experience. I learned German in rural Bavaria (but near
Munich), and I ONLY learned to say "ich," for example. The usage of "i" seemed only to
come out for people in full-on Bairisch.


To my shame I have never been the south, so I can't really answer your question.

I was visiting my wife's extended family in Münsterland over Christmas, and although everybody naturally speaks Hochdeutsch, the older generation (parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles) all switched to Plattdeutsch after the schnapps came out. My wife's generation only speak Hochdeutsch.

In Berlin you certainly hear Berlinerish fairly regularly if you move in the right circles (e.g., the local Kneipe). I had a taxi ride the other day and the driver spoke the whole time in a strong Berlinerish idiom. Not that this seems so far removed from Hochdeutsch.

Of course, there are so many immigrants (including Germans) in Berlin it's common enough to hear Swabish also. I was surprised the other day to realize that my favorite bar here in Neukölln is actually owned by Bavarians. But they speak an nice Hochdeutsch.

There are apparently so many South Germans her that there has been a bit of a backlash by older locals (they really need to be reminded that Berlin is the capital of all of Germany). There is even a Free Schwabylon movement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxEp50DJMh0

Edited by patrickwilken on 10 January 2014 at 4:27pm



2 persons have voted this message useful



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