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The Arabic Thread (Arabic encoding)

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souley
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 Message 9 of 55
04 June 2006 at 12:31pm | IP Logged 
Okay, maybe someone can change the title of the Thread to "The Arabic Thread".

I will now edit my original post to include a brief translation.

Like I said, I would like for some one who is capable of it , to change the title of the thread and remove some of the off topic threads (including this one) so we can hopefully get this thread going.

Kind Regards

EDIT: I just realized I can change the title myself. Sorry.

Edited by souley on 04 June 2006 at 12:41pm
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patuco
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 Message 10 of 55
04 June 2006 at 12:46pm | IP Logged 
souley wrote:
patuco wrote:
However, all posts should be in English as per the rules of the forum, or at least, a translation should be provided.

Huh? How do you explain the Swedish thread which goes on for about 8 pages without any translation? I thought it was allowed to discuss in other languages in the Practical Self Study forum.

I've just re-read my post and I've realised that it sounds a bit abrupt. My apologies, that was not my intention. I was merely trying to point out what victor said.
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Darobat
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 Message 11 of 55
04 June 2006 at 1:59pm | IP Logged 
I personally think that there should be many such threads to convserse in many languages, but this doesn't seem to work. All such threads seem to end up off topic and in English except for the Swedish thread.

Perhaps now that our forum is bigger we could profit from a multilingual lounge.
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JFA
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 Message 12 of 55
04 June 2006 at 3:03pm | IP Logged 
souley wrote:
السلام عليكم
كنت أريد أن أوجد منتديا لكل من يتكلم او يتعلم اللغة العربية حتي نستطيع من خلاله طرح الأسئلة الموجودة عندنا على بعض, سوى كانت في النحو او في الصرف او حتى في علم المفردات. و أن يساعد بعضنا بعضا. قد يكون البعض بحاجة إلى الكتابة و التنقيح, فيمكننا التحدث في اي موضوع نراه مناسبا و نطلب التصحيح و التنقيح من الأخرين اذا رأينا لذلك حاجة

فأدعو جميع الأعضاء الذين يدرسون اللغة العربية حاليا او لقد سبق لهم الدراسة فيها, إلى المشاركة بقدر الإمكان حتى نجد هذا المنتدي حافلا مثل المنتديات الموجودة باللغات الأخرى في هذا الموقع

مع اطيب التحية   

Translation:

I wanted to create a thread or meeting place for all those who speak or are learning to speak Arabic, so that we can ask eachother any questions we might have, be it in Grammar or Vocabulary. And that we help eachother, some of us might be in need to pratice writing and recieving input and correction. So we can converse in any suitable subject and ask others to correct us, if we feel the need for it.
So I call upon all members who are currently studying Arabic or have studied it before to participate so that this thread becomes as full as the other language threads on this site.

Kind Regards


أقبل دعوتك.
أما مشاركتك الأولى خليني أقدم بعض الاقتراحات و التسحيحات:
I accept your invitation.
As for your first post, please allow me offer a few corrections and suggestions:

(Remember that I am still a learner so these are just suggestions. I may be wrong on some things as well. Natives would obviously know better.)

In order of appearance (more or less):

منتدى (muntadin), spelled with an alif maqsuura, usually translates as forum (i.e. gathering place), but I guess by extention it could be thread. I’m not sure if there really is a good word for thread (in terms of internet forums), but I suggest سياق (siyaaq), which means ‘succession, sequence', and also ‘context’.

I would use the preposition لـ rather than حتى (Hatta) in the construction you are intending. Examples:

أريد أن أفتح سياقا لنستطيع ...
uriidu an aftaHa siyaaqan li-nastaTii3a
I want to open a thread so that we can …

يستمع إلى الأستاذ ليفهم الموضوع
Yastami3u 2ila al-2ustaazi li-yafhama al-mawDuu3a
He listens to the professor in order to understand the lesson.

I would leave out من خلاله (min khulaalihi) as it is not necessary, nor do you have it in your English translation. But if you wanted to say , “…and through it…” leave out the “min.” What you have written is literally “from through it”

I would leave out الموجودة (al-mawjuuda) unless you wanted to say “existing questions”. It, also, is not in your English translation, so why put it in your Arabic. Simplicity is beautiful; why make things more complicated than they need to be.

For the construction “be it … or…” the word you intend is سواء (sawaa2). You could also use إما...أو (imma … aw) which, I believe is more common than the other and the construction I normally use.

The preposition with أسئلة (as2ila) is عن ('an) and you don’t need علم ('ilm) with مفردات (mufradaat), so the sentence would be “سواء/إما عن النحو او الصرف او المفردات “ (sawaa2/imma 3an al-naHwi aw al-Sarfi aw al-mufradaati.”

Also, might I suggest putting the أن نساعد right after نستطيع like so:

لنستطيع المساعدة بعضنا بعضاً وطرح أسئلتنا على بعضنا بعضا، سواء/إما عن النحو او الصرف او المفردات.
nastatii3 al-musaa3adata ba3Dina ba3Dan wa-TarHa 2as2ilatina 3ala ba3Dina ba3Dan, sawaa2/imma 3an al-naHwi aw al-Sarfi aw al-mufradaati.
…so that we can help each other and pose questions to each other, whether they be about grammar, inflection, or vocabulary.

For “Some of us might be in need of writing practice, and receiving input and correction”:

ربما يكون بعضنا بحاجة إلى تمرين في الكتابة وتنقيح/تصحيح.
Rubbamaa yakuun ba3Dinaa biHaagatin 2ila tamriinin fii al-kitaabati wa-tanqiiHin/tasHiiHin.
Maybe some of us are in need of writing practice and corrections/revisions.

In the last paragraph/sentence if you intend to say “other language threads” I would suggest:
سياقات اللغات الأخرى
Siyaaqaati al-lughaati al-2ukhra.

Also remember that with the word “and” in Arabic (و ), and all one letter words, they are attached to the next word – وأنا and not و أنا (wa-ana, not wa ana).


Edited by JFA on 04 June 2006 at 3:07pm
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souley
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Studies: Arabic (Written), French

 
 Message 13 of 55
04 June 2006 at 3:51pm | IP Logged 
Hehe JFA!

I want to thank you for your post. However, most of your corrections were not correct, so I do not know why you were so quick to correct me.

But first of all, lets correct the little you wrote.

أما مشاركتك الأولى خليني أقدم بعض الاقتراحات و التسحيحات:

1) First of all, after writing "أما" adding فا is obligatory in Arabic grammar.
2) "خليني" This is not correct to write in written form, this is the Egyptian dialect. The correct one is either "إسمح لي" or "دعني".
3) You wrote تسحيحات the correct word is تصحيحات

With regards to your corrections ..

The word حتى is used in two ways, either as "until" and either as "in order to"

الطالب يدرس حتى ينجح في الإمتحان

So my sentence was in this case correct.

With regards to من خلاله , first of all, the transliteration is Min khilalihi, and not "khulalihi". Secondly, let's take an article from BBC Arabic as an example:

أنهى عضو في البرلمان الفرنسي إضرابا عن الطعام استمر 39 يوما أراد من خلاله الاحتجاج على خطط شركة يابانية بإقفال مقرها في دائرته الانتخابية.

Here you can see how the words من خلاله are used. And hence, that my sentence was correct.

لنستطيع المساعدة بعضنا بعضاً وطرح أسئلتنا على بعضنا بعضا، /إما عن النحو او الصرف او المفردات

This sentence is not correct, you added مساعدة with alif laam, even though it is مضاف and you made the second بعض mansoob, even though it is majroor. And the sentence "وطرح أسئلتنا على بعضنا بعضا" is not correct at all, and it makes no sense.

And saying إما instead of سوى is not correct, because it changes the meaning.

And علم المفردات is correct.

I also want to mention, without sounding arrogant, that I am currently in Egypt, and I asked my friend, who is a native Egyptian, graduate from al-Azhar university, to read what I wrote and what you commented, and he said what I wrote was correct and your comments were not understandable or correct.

I appreciate your efforts to help me, but you have to be certain before you correct someone, otherwise it could be interpreted as trying to brag.

I would however welcome any participation from you in Arabic, without the English.

Kind Regards
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JFA
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 Message 14 of 55
04 June 2006 at 6:07pm | IP Logged 
Ahlan ya souley,

First, Thank you for your corrections as well. I really should proofread more before posting. Secondly, I would like to say that I am not trying to sound arrogant, but as your initial post asked, offering help, suggestions, and corrections. Lastly, I gave the caveat of being a learner myself, and prone to error. I never talk in absolutes like you seem to be. That is a dangerous thing for a learner to do (something that I did at first, until I was tempered), as when one believes he/she is always right, there is no room for anymore learning and thus helping/offering suggestions is futile.

souley wrote:
Hehe JFA!

I want to thank you for your post. However, most of your corrections were not correct, so I do not know why you were so quick to correct me.

But first of all, lets correct the little you wrote.

أما مشاركتك الأولى خليني أقدم بعض الاقتراحات و التسحيحات:

1) First of all, after writing "أما" adding فا is obligatory in Arabic grammar.
2) "خليني" This is not correct to write in written form, this is the Egyptian dialect. The correct one is either "إسمح لي" or "دعني".
3) You wrote تسحيحات the correct word is تصحيحات
Yes, the first and second were oversights, the third a typo.

Quote:

With regards to your corrections ..

The word حتى is used in two ways, either as "until" and either as "in order to"

الطالب يدرس حتى ينجح في الإمتحان

So my sentence was in this case correct.
Yes, I know the usages of حتى -- there are many more than just two usages. If you'll notice, I did not say that your sentence was wrong, but that the normal construction, and I would venture to say, the most common as well, is with the preposition لـ .

Quote:
With regards to من خلاله , first of all, the transliteration is Min khilalihi, and not "khulalihi". Secondly, let's take an article from BBC Arabic as an example:

أنهى عضو في البرلمان الفرنسي إضرابا عن الطعام استمر 39 يوما أراد من خلاله الاحتجاج على خطط شركة يابانية بإقفال مقرها في دائرته الانتخابية.

Here you can see how the words من خلاله are used. And hence, that my sentence was correct.

Yes, sometimes I revert back to colloquial pronunciation. It is a bad habit of mine.
I will have to check on that one, but it does not sound correct to my ears.

Quote:


لنستطيع المساعدة بعضنا بعضاً وطرح أسئلتنا على بعضنا بعضا، /إما عن النحو او الصرف او المفردات

This sentence is not correct, you added مساعدة with alif laam, even though it is مضاف and you made the second بعض mansoob, even though it is majroor. And the sentence "وطرح أسئلتنا على بعضنا بعضا" is not correct at all, and it makes no sense.

Yes, as I said sometimes I make mistakes. I should not have added the alif lam. The second one is indeed majruur. if it were manSuub I would have written in as ba3dana ba3dan with an 'a' in English transliteration, but I wrote it as ba3dina ba3dan with an 'i'. Further "ba3dana ba3dan," "ba3dahum ba3dan," etc. is a set phrase meaning each other (check your Hans Wehr).

Quote:
And saying إما instead of سوى is not correct, because it changes the meaning.
No it's not, and it should be written سواء like I said (check your Hans Wehr). You are thinking of أما (amma) with a fatHa which means "as for", whereas إما (imma) with a kasra used with او mean "whether ... or ..." or "be it ... or ..." (again, check your Hans Wehr). Any native speaker, let alone a graduate from al-Azhar, should know that.

Quote:
And علم المفردات is correct.
The science of vocabulary? Even if it is correct, the علم is not necessary here. All you have to say is vocabulary.

Quote:
I also want to mention, without sounding arrogant, that I am currently in Egypt, and I asked my friend, who is a native Egyptian, graduate from al-Azhar university, to read what I wrote and what you commented, and he said what I wrote was correct and your comments were not understandable or correct.
Well, I will also check with some of my native Arabic speaking friends, and (not to sound arrogant, right?) I will run it by my Arabic professor here at Wayne State, who also happens to be the director of the Arabic Language School at Middleberry College.

Quote:
I appreciate your efforts to help me, but you have to be certain before you correct someone, otherwise it could be interpreted as trying to brag.
Duly noted. wa-anta ayDan. As for the bragging/arrogance, I already answered it above -- all I'm doing is engaging in helpful discussion.

Quote:
I would however welcome any participation from you in Arabic, without the English.

وهو كذلك

يوخد أخطاء أخرى لـم أعلق عليها ولكن كما قلت سأسأل أصدقائي والأستاذ قبل ان أرد



Edited by JFA on 04 June 2006 at 6:32pm
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souley
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 Message 15 of 55
04 June 2006 at 7:42pm | IP Logged 
Quote:
Yes, I know the usages of حتى -- there are many more than just two usages. If you'll notice, I did not say that your sentence was wrong, but that the normal construction, and I would venture to say, the most common as well, is with the preposition لـ .


It is not more common, it's from person to person, I know Arabs who only use حتى and some who don't use it so much. So there is no normal och innormal construction.

Quote:
Yes, sometimes I revert back to colloquial pronunciation. It is a bad habit of mine.
I will have to check on that one, but it does not sound correct to my ears.


Yes do check it out. Meanwhile here are some other examples of min khilaalihi in the Arab press:

وجه قادة بارزون من اليمين المسيحي في أمريكا تحذيراً إلى الجمهوريين يطالبونهم من خلاله بعمل المزيد لتعزيز القيم المحافظة وتوطيدها

Example 2:
يجرب حاليا في بريطانيا، ولأول مرة، أسلوب جديد كليا يمكن من خلاله تجنب خسارة بعض مرضى السرطان لأطرافهم خلال المعالجة الكيماوية

Example 3:

وأكد البيان أن مثل هذه الأحداث لا ولن تؤثر على التزام مصر الكامل ببذل كل جهد ممكن للتوصل إلى تسوية سلمية شاملة للقضية الفلسطينية من خلال المفاوضات مع الطرفين الفلسطيني والاسرائيلي

And so on, and so on.

Quote:
Yes, as I said sometimes I make mistakes. I should not have added the alif lam. The second one is indeed majruur. if it were manSuub I would have written in as ba3dana ba3dan with an 'a' in English transliteration, but I wrote it as ba3dina ba3dan with an 'i'. Further "ba3dana ba3dan," "ba3dahum ba3dan," etc. is a set phrase meaning each other (check your Hans Wehr).

Hehe I know what it means, but it is NOT a set phrase meaning which you can place anywhere. It has to be adjusted to fit the grammar of the sentence.


Quote:
You are thinking of أما (amma) with a fatHa which means "as for", whereas إما (imma) with a kasra used with او mean "whether ... or ..." or "be it ... or ..." (again, check your Hans Wehr). Any native speaker, let alone a graduate from al-Azhar, should know that.


Im definataly not thinking of أما. You said إما which means either,,,or. There are two mistakes here:

1) When you use the word إما, you have to re-use it. You can not say إما تذهب او تبقى , you have to say إما تذهب
.و إما تبقى

2) What I said in my original post was that سوى كانت عن الصرف او عن النحو
The word إما does not fit here.



Quote:
And علم المفردات is correct. The science of vocabulary? Even if it is correct, the علم is not necessary here. All you have to say is vocabulary.


Hehehe

Quote:
I also want to mention, without sounding arrogant, that I am currently in Egypt, and I asked my friend, who is a native Egyptian, graduate from al-Azhar university, to read what I wrote and what you commented, and he said what I wrote was correct and your comments were not understandable or correct.
Well, I will also check with some of my native Arabic speaking friends, and (not to sound arrogant, right?) I will run it by my Arabic professor here at Wayne State, who also happens to be the director of the Arabic Language School at Middleberry College.

Quote:
Duly noted. wa-anta ayDan. As for the bragging/arrogance, I already answered it above -- all I'm doing is engaging in helpful discussion.


No. You corrected me, without being certain. You did not know what من خلاله means, so why not ask? Instead you directly said it was a mistake, which it most certainly isnt.

Quote:
وهو كذلك

يوخد أخطاء أخرى لـم أعلق عليها ولكن كما قلت سأسأل أصدقائي والأستاذ قبل ان أرد


I would love to hear what these mistakes are.

بالمناسبة:

توجد أخطاء أخرى
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JFA
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 Message 16 of 55
04 June 2006 at 11:13pm | IP Logged 
Quote:
Hehe I know what it means, but it is NOT a set phrase meaning which you can place anywhere. It has to be adjusted to fit the grammar of the sentence.
Tell me how it is used then.

Quote:
Im definataly not thinking of أما. You said إما which means either,,,or. There are two mistakes here:

1) When you use the word إما, you have to re-use it. You can not say إما تذهب او تبقى , you have to say إما تذهب
   .و إما تبقى
It can be either way -- إما...وإما or إما...أو

Quote:
2) What I said in my original post was that سوى كانت عن الصرف او عن النحو
The word إما does not fit here.
It may not be interchangable in all cases, but in this case it can be. I stand by my contention.

Quote:
Hehehe
What does this mean?

Quote:
No. You corrected me, without being certain. You did not know what من خلاله means, so why not ask? Instead you directly said it was a mistake, which it most certainly isnt.
What does that have to do with bragging? We all make mistakes in understanding collocations, sometimes.

Quote:
I would love to hear what these mistakes are.


Well, for one look at this sentence from your initial post:

Quote:
و أن يساعد بعضنا بعضا.


This is not a sentence, it is a fragment. Furthermore, I don't believe you can begin a sentence with أن . That's why I suggested a rewording. You said that your native Egyptian friend said that your post was fine and correct while fine was incomprehensible, and incorrect, but I have trouble believing that a native educated speaker would tell you that the above quoted sentence is correct.

Quote:
المنتديات الموجودة باللغات الأخرى

This wording is very awkward, and translates as "the existing forums in other languages," and not want you intended as per your English translation. While not wrong grammatically, I would imagine an educated native speaker would suggest a better wording.

I also have trouble believing an educated native speaker would not agree that سأل is used with the preposition عن and not في in the context of your post.

The other possible errors that I didn't comment on are more structural/wording issues, but as I said, I will make sure before I say anything just to make sure as I may be wrong.

I assume my comments that you didn't respond to in your initial reply to my post you have no dispute with?

Salamaat,
Josh

Edited by JFA on 04 June 2006 at 11:25pm


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