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The New R-L-R Method! | ||
Tags: Listening-Reading (L-R) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6233 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes  Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 33 of 47 03 July 2009 at 11:25am | IP Logged | ||
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I have to agree with those who call this method harmful. It's somewhat useful for some purposes, but it's very damaging to start with it, and even for advanced studies, it has some pitfalls (there are many words I don't pronounce correctly in my native English, because I've only read them).
I'm primarily interested in reading - not exclusively, but primarily. I've used a number of reading-first/only "approaches" over the years (mainly when I was younger, and not really intending to learn languages, but simply playing around with what was available, especially if it were parallel). This lead to absolutely horrible pronunciation. My listening comprehension, on the other hand, seems to be able to develop fairly quickly from this base - but with some serious shortcomings (ie, I had a fun conversation in a bookstore in Germany, a few months ago - I asked where the "hörbuch" were, the saleslady replied "the opra?", and I said "yes" - my phonetic model of the language was that screwed up. A few months ago, I couldn't distinguish o, ö, and u (much less between the three u sounds). A few weeks ago, I couldn't distinguish -e from -er. (This paragraph refers entirely to German). I'm working on this, but it's a very slow process, and my production has serious quirks still - my "u"s are often incomprehensible, for one. Even for someone who mainly care about reading, like me, I find it sucks to not be able to speak decently. When I run into someone who speaks a language I can somewhat understand but not speak (say, a lost tourist, or one having trouble with some everyday thing, or people I'd like to talk to at a conference... even if they speak English one-on-one, people tend to balkanize into language-specific groups at conferences, I find), it can be quite disappointing/frustrating. It's easy to fall into the idea that oral communication isn't worth it - but honestly, I wonder to what extent that's simply sour grapes. Developing a reasonable idea of the pronunciation first is something I really strongly have to recommend. I freely admit I'm a fairly academic and book-friendly type - but this in no way makes me want to be cut off from communication - who's too serious for academic conferences?! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5879 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 34 of 47 03 July 2009 at 11:48am | IP Logged | ||
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I've recently taken a pause with L+R and started concentrating on communication.
I think it will help to boost my overall skills if I can carry on a fluid conversation -- without all the stops and starts and "uhs". It will be an interesting experiment. I'm also interested in how fast I can get my speaking ability up to par with my L+R level. Edited by Sunja on 03 July 2009 at 11:49am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| JS-1 Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 5777 days ago 144 posts - 166 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Arabic (Egyptian), German, Japanese, Ancient Egyptian, Arabic (Written) | Message 35 of 47 03 July 2009 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have to agree with Volte. If you don't take care of pronunciation at the beginning, you
risk building up a phonetic model of a language that doesn't actually exist. I think it would be a shame to learn to speak your own version of a language fluently, when it wouldn't be much more difficult to learn the language as it is actually spoken. Can anybody be sure that they will never want to actually use a language after going to the bother of learning it? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6469 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 36 of 47 03 July 2009 at 1:26pm | IP Logged | ||
Are you sure you will be interested in this language at all? Sorry, but I don't buy all that "harmful method and permanent damage" crap. If we don't have motivation, we won't study any language. Do what you need or like. If you need reading, start reading. If you like reading comic books, start reading comic books. If you need reading philosophy, start reading philosophy. If you like reading bodybuilding, start with bodybuilding. Tomorrow, if you need or like anything else, we will think how to do it. Keep it simple... EDIT: No multiple posts please. Edited by patuco on 03 July 2009 at 2:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5805 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 37 of 47 03 July 2009 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | ||
Then you're not paying enough attention. Volte already gave a perfect example of how this is harmful and permanent. She first learned German from reading it with an "English" eye. Because in her native English a final, unstressed -ER is just a schwa, as is a final unstressed vowel. Her brain has put German words ending -ER and -E into the same box. Now imagine someone from the south of England tried learning Spanish from a page without ever hearing it or reading about the phonetics. The word "hablar" would start with an English aspirant "H", the stress would move to the first syllable and the last syllable would be reduced to a weak vowel, no R sound at all; in fact, he would pronounce it the same way as "hablo", "habla" and "hable", too, which would be a massive barrier to comprehension. A native English speaker would have no idea what the accent marks mean either, so "jamón", which looks clear to you, may well still get stressed on the first syllable, it would definitely pick up an English J, and the ó would probably end up diphthongised. The problem is that the brain interprets all language phonetically -- if you try to learn in the absence of a reasonably accurate phonetic model, you will build your own model. Edited by Cainntear on 03 July 2009 at 4:38pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Rmss Triglot Senior Member Spain spanish-only.coRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6358 days ago 234 posts - 248 votes 3 sounds Speaks: Dutch*, English, Spanish Studies: Portuguese | Message 38 of 47 03 July 2009 at 2:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've spent many hours reading Spanish for academic reasons. Still, listening was my first priority (although I'm majoring Spanish and thus need to read/write a lot - listening and speaking isn't a top priority at the moment).
But like Volte says, listening comprehension is REALLY important. I attended some college classes here in Spain last month. All classes were about subjects I never did any research to, but I could understand EVERYTHING (including the jokes in some of the interruptions). Was that because I've read a lot? It sure adds up, but the most important thing was LISTENING! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6241 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German | Message 39 of 47 03 July 2009 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | ||
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Wow, dude. You've just invented a steaming pile of rubbish. We need a sonar to measure the depth of stupidity here. Who knows, if you choose the right language maybe you can sound like the Swedish chef! The combinations are practically infinite! Just don't choose Swedish. That won't work.
Edited by reineke on 03 July 2009 at 4:39pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6233 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 40 of 47 03 July 2009 at 3:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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To everyone: hey, let's stay civil in our criticism. This method has some serious pitfalls, but they're certainly largely avoidable (ie, if you're using this method to deepen your knowledge of a language you already pronounce "tolerably", however you personally define that). I also would consider using it from the beginning for a dead language.
That it can be damaging for starting living languages seems clear. That this damage is irreversible is not clear. One side note, to Cainntear: I'm female. I'd appreciate if you'd use the correct pronoun. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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