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lloydkirk
Diglot
Senior Member
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 6203 days ago
429 posts - 452 votes 
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Russian
| Message 57 of 194 07 November 2007 at 4:20pm | IP Logged |
furyou_gaijin wrote:
remush wrote:
| I just joined this forum not long ago, and I only follow this thread. I have no intention to participate in discussions about other languages here |
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This is exactly what leo and myself meant: some people (like yourself, possibly) seem to look up every mention of Esperanto on online forums and then join these forums to offer their voice in defense of that language.
Am I the only one to actually find this behaviour rather creepy?.. |
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Sorry, I kind of caught this post late. But to respond, yeah, I do find it rather disturbing. It's not just Esperantists that are doing it though, I've seen francophile and hispanophiles literally troll forums worshiping their respective native languages and attack anyone who doesn't feel the same. Pop over to antimoon to see what I mean...
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| remush
Tetraglot
Groupie
Belgium
remush.beRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 6058 days ago
79 posts - 94 votes
Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch
Studies: German, Polish
| Message 58 of 194 07 November 2007 at 6:01pm | IP Logged |
Either you are very young, either you think in absolute numbers.
Probably both.
lloydkirk wrote:
remush wrote:
| It's true that English is about to have the same acceptance as French had not so long ago, before it was dethroned. |
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I don't follow. French never attained the acceptance english has throughout the world today. Not even close... |
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1 person has voted this message useful
| remush
Tetraglot
Groupie
Belgium
remush.beRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 6058 days ago
79 posts - 94 votes
Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch
Studies: German, Polish
| Message 59 of 194 07 November 2007 at 6:10pm | IP Logged |
precisely. You missed that when in [...] when it starts selling [...] : a condition not a crystal ball prediction.
Volte wrote:
remush wrote:
When?
frenkeld wrote:
remush wrote:
| I am not able to read crystal balls. |
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remush,
I thought when you said, "and when it starts selling, believe me, you'll adjust your engine", you were making a prediction. What did you otherwise mean by that?
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4th post on the previous page of this thread, posted yesterday. |
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Edited by remush on 07 November 2007 at 6:10pm
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| frenkeld
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6733 days ago
2042 posts - 2719 votes
Speaks: Russian*, English
Studies: German
| Message 60 of 194 07 November 2007 at 6:24pm | IP Logged |
The full statement was, "Esperanto is garbage, but those Esperanto-pigs are making fuel out of it, and when it starts selling, believe me, you'll adjust your engine."
It would've been better to use "if" instead of "when" here. Otherwise, as the saying goes, it sounds like a matter of when, not if.
Edited by frenkeld on 07 November 2007 at 6:36pm
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| lloydkirk
Diglot
Senior Member
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 6203 days ago
429 posts - 452 votes
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Russian
| Message 61 of 194 07 November 2007 at 6:26pm | IP Logged |
remush wrote:
Either you are very young, either you think in absolute numbers.
Probably both.
lloydkirk wrote:
remush wrote:
| It's true that English is about to have the same acceptance as French had not so long ago, before it was dethroned. |
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I don't follow. French never attained the acceptance english has throughout the world today. Not even close... |
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You've lost me again remush.
1 person has voted this message useful
| remush
Tetraglot
Groupie
Belgium
remush.beRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 6058 days ago
79 posts - 94 votes
Speaks: French*, Esperanto, English, Dutch
Studies: German, Polish
| Message 62 of 194 07 November 2007 at 6:40pm | IP Logged |
Art wrote:
The Decline and Fall of Esperanto:
... A proposed standard, no matter how simple, logical, and well designed, may have difficulty displacing an imperfect but functional "real life" system. ...
... Recognition of communication chaos, the proposal of neutral standards and their attempted dissemination, failure of the standards to achieve universal approval, and reluctant acceptance of flawed but workable substitutes -- these are common themes for both Esperanto and informatics. The bottom line seems to be that a proposed standard, no matter how logical and well intentioned, will not flourish if it overlooks the practical issues inherent in "real life" systems. As one informatics guru remarked, "You can design all the standards you want, but in the end you have to do it Microsoft's way." This statement represents both a degree of hyperbole and a dose of reality. ...
Does The World Need Esperanto?:
... The other much vaunted advantage of Esperanto over English is, as I mentioned, that it's neutral. ... This is not quite the case, of course. It is in reality, an Indo-European language, reflecting in a stripped-down, regularised way, how a Russian speaking Jew from Bialystok in Tsarist Poland saw the world; it bears no relation to how a Hopi Indian sees the world or a native Bantu, Arabic or Korean speaker. It is the very model of the highly determined Indo-European way of seeing: The world is gendered, there are subjects and objects, the feminine flows from the masculine, actions must be defined as past, present or future. There are inflexions for number and tense, the vocabulary is Latin or Germanic for the most part, with all the baggage those words bring with them. So to speak Esperanto is to look at the world through European eyes. ...
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If somebody is still delusional about Esperanto, do a search in The New York Times for articles in 1905-1908 about Esperanto. You'll be amazed, that nothing has changes about Esperanto and this language is nothing, but the tool of an utopian dream about cosmopolitism with some traits of communism.
"Real life" is "real life" and we should deal with real.
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This is exactly what I thought after 5 lessons of Teach Yourself Esperanto.
This looks really stupid after one has mastered the language. Very superficial analysis.
The example with Microsoft was to avoid. When Microsoft was created, IBM was the giant, and Microsoft was building toys (same position as Esperanto now compared to English).
I don't wish to answer all stupidities, like communism etc... That's paranoia.
Esperanto is real, not under construction.
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| furyou_gaijin
Senior Member
Japan
Joined 6176 days ago
540 posts - 631 votes
Speaks: Latin*
| Message 63 of 194 08 November 2007 at 4:22am | IP Logged |
remush wrote:
Art wrote:
| It is the very model of the highly determined Indo-European way of seeing: The world is gendered, there are subjects and objects, the feminine flows from the masculine, actions must be defined as past, present or future. There are inflexions for number and tense, the vocabulary is Latin or Germanic for the most part, with all the baggage those words bring with them. So to speak Esperanto is to look at the world through European eyes.. |
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...This looks really stupid after one has mastered the language. Very superficial analysis. |
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How does the above quote look stupid? It seems rather accurate, as far as facts are concerned.
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| Karakorum
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6359 days ago
201 posts - 232 votes
Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written)*
Studies: French, German
| Message 64 of 194 08 November 2007 at 4:30am | IP Logged |
remush wrote:
Art wrote:
The Decline and Fall of Esperanto:
... A proposed standard, no matter how simple, logical, and well designed, may have difficulty displacing an imperfect but functional "real life" system. ...
... Recognition of communication chaos, the proposal of neutral standards and their attempted dissemination, failure of the standards to achieve universal approval, and reluctant acceptance of flawed but workable substitutes -- these are common themes for both Esperanto and informatics. The bottom line seems to be that a proposed standard, no matter how logical and well intentioned, will not flourish if it overlooks the practical issues inherent in "real life" systems. As one informatics guru remarked, "You can design all the standards you want, but in the end you have to do it Microsoft's way." This statement represents both a degree of hyperbole and a dose of reality. ...
Does The World Need Esperanto?:
... The other much vaunted advantage of Esperanto over English is, as I mentioned, that it's neutral. ... This is not quite the case, of course. It is in reality, an Indo-European language, reflecting in a stripped-down, regularised way, how a Russian speaking Jew from Bialystok in Tsarist Poland saw the world; it bears no relation to how a Hopi Indian sees the world or a native Bantu, Arabic or Korean speaker. It is the very model of the highly determined Indo-European way of seeing: The world is gendered, there are subjects and objects, the feminine flows from the masculine, actions must be defined as past, present or future. There are inflexions for number and tense, the vocabulary is Latin or Germanic for the most part, with all the baggage those words bring with them. So to speak Esperanto is to look at the world through European eyes. ...
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If somebody is still delusional about Esperanto, do a search in The New York Times for articles in 1905-1908 about Esperanto. You'll be amazed, that nothing has changes about Esperanto and this language is nothing, but the tool of an utopian dream about cosmopolitism with some traits of communism.
"Real life" is "real life" and we should deal with real.
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This is exactly what I thought after 5 lessons of Teach Yourself Esperanto.
This looks really stupid after one has mastered the language. Very superficial analysis.
The example with Microsoft was to avoid. When Microsoft was created, IBM was the giant, and Microsoft was building toys (same position as Esperanto now compared to English).
I don't wish to answer all stupidities, like communism etc... That's paranoia.
Esperanto is real, not under construction. |
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I actually think the argument is very good. It's not an issue of David vs. Goliath, but rather an observation that historically suboptimal and inefficient technologies have been widely adopted over optimal ones for seemingly marginal reasons. We can safely assume that people are a lot more passionate about language than they are about technology, so they are even more likely to adopt a sub-optimal language for cultural reasons. That is if we assume that Esperanto is an optimal language (a very generous allowance).
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