|
 |
Importance of frequent vs rarer words? | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5052 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 41 of 81 09 June 2015 at 10:01pm | IP Logged | ||
|
There are many subsets of learners here. Some want to concentrate on reading and consuming media. Some want to do that and travel. Others want to be able to do everything in a language. When one doesn't have the opportunity for travel, or even meeting TL speakers in person, one doesn't really need to master "everyday" vocabulary. If a learner's speaking and listening abilities are at a high enough level, it won't take much time to get up to speed.
I remember having to buy a pair of shoes in São Paulo a few years ago. I didn't know the word for shoelaces. It had never come up in my learning. I didn't want the red shoelaces that came with the pair of shoes I was trying on, so I asked my attendant what they were called- in Portuguese of course, because he didn't speak English. I got the word cadarços ou atacadores. I remember because of the awkwardness involved in not knowing the word. Should I have spent hours doing srs for shoelaces, converter plug, duct tape and other vocabulary I could have needed for my trip? Would that have been more efficient and a better use of my time than reading, speaking, listening and grammar study? I don't think so. I hardly ever have to buy a pair of shoes, a converter plug or duct tape when I travel. Having a good foundation in the language allows me to use a circumlocution to describe what I am looking for, then I get the word and I remember. I can use it in the future, should the need arise. Does that lack of so-called "everyday" vocabulary knowledge somehow make me an "incomplete" and inferior language learner? Again, I don't believe so. If a learner never travels, rarely speaks with natives and isn't living in a TL country or situation, such vocabulary hardly ever arises. When it does, or when it may, it is usually a simple matter to add it to the vocabulary knowledge base. If one wants to work as a translator, again, it depends on what type of translation in which one wishes to specialize. I'm sure that there are Portuguese to English translators who specialize in engineering who would not know, or even need to know, how to translate "shoelaces". To sum up, I believe that all vocabulary is useful, but not all vocabulary is useful at the same time or in the same situation- it depends. What I find most useful is having a good enough foundation in a language so I can ask for the words I may need in a conversation or figure them out from context. I believe the earliest lessons in a language course should include some variation of "How do I say 'this/that/those/these thing/things' in Spanish/French/Finnish, etc?". "Give a person a fish and he/she eats for a day. Teach someone how to fish..." Sadly, few course authors believe that this phrase is important to know. It's served me quite well in my travels. Edited by iguanamon on 09 June 2015 at 10:30pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4799 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 42 of 81 09 June 2015 at 10:19pm | IP Logged | ||
|
ok, you might not like my examples. And I am not saying every learner should know a lightbulb or shoelaces. It is just a common problem that intermediate and advanced learners (now I am speaking based on the dozens I've met in real life in person, not any kind of study) struggle with nouns related to normal life much more than with specialized and literary vocabulary. And that someone who wants to travel is likely to need such words. Speaking a language during travelling just means something different from speaking a language during a group exchange meeting.
I am as well not calling any learners inferior, just pointing out an area where wide vocabulary is needed, I hope noone read any offence in my post, if that is so, I sincerely apologize. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5052 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 43 of 81 09 June 2015 at 10:29pm | IP Logged | ||
|
Cavesa, no offense is taken. I didn't even read your post. I was actually inspired to post a reply after reading s_allard's post and to reply to the op's original post.
After reading your post, I agree with you. Most learners can't put together a shopping list or call the plumber in a TL. Since most of us don't live in a TL-speaking country or situation, we probably don't really need to know that until we will be in such a situation, which may be never for most learners. If I were spending a while living in a TL country, I would definitely be acquiring this type of vocabulary. Edited by iguanamon on 09 June 2015 at 10:40pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4080 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 44 of 81 10 June 2015 at 12:18am | IP Logged | ||
|
Looking at my Spanish Vocabulary Handbook, it has sections on "Love", "Life & Death",
"Heaalth & Hygiene", "Accidents & Emergencies", "Illness & Disability", "Prejudice", "Poverty & Social Services", "Addiction & Violence", "Housing & Homelessness", "Religion", amongst other vocabulary groups that span more than a page each section. I have a feeling that North Americans would consider learning these at a secondary school level as "sensitive", but that is the fault of the people who hold such conservative standards rather than the fact of life is that these things occur and are common vocabulary that one has to learn. In terms of frequency and rare words, a vocabulary section on contraception is quite necessary if one wants to know what is going on in real life. Not only on the television are there adverts, but going to the chemist (pharmacy), or just a regular department/grocery store these things are all over the place. It may be rare for some to actively use the vocabulary in this section, but to recognise it is not infrequent because unless one lives on a secluded compound in the middle of the countryside, these topics are quite frequent in terms of passive skills. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| chaotic_thought Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 3332 days ago 129 posts - 274 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Dutch, French | Message 45 of 81 10 June 2015 at 10:04am | IP Logged | ||
This is an example where thinking like a translator is a pitfall for most language learners. Unless you enjoy and are good at memorizing vocabulary translations, I advise against it. Why is that? Effective communicators (including native speakers) don't need to know the names of an unbounded set of objects. You don't see native speakers reaching for a dictionary whenever they see an uncommon fruit or something. No! Maybe you know the right name for that fruit, but if it's uncommon to your audience then they will just call it "fruit that looks sort of like an apple" or something. In your example, suppose this communicator wants to talk about shoelaces, but does not actually know the word "shoe-laces", or perhaps the word doesn't come to her mind for some reason. The solution, often overlooked by language learners, is obvious. She will just use words she does know, on the spot. For example, "shoe-strings", or "shoe-ties", or "those shoe-tightening-thingies that keep your shoes on" or any of an infinite number of creative choices as long as it gets her message across. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5052 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 46 of 81 10 June 2015 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | ||
Which is exactly what I did and do. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4799 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 47 of 81 10 June 2015 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | ||
|
That's exactly what I do very often. But do it too much and the speakers will switch to English, it's that simple.
And it's not just about shoelaces, there are simply situations where you need to get thinking fast, no time for dictionary, asking around or finding ways around a word. That's why I'm all for preparing myself in time ever since my one month long experience in Spain. I used to be the "I'll learn it when I need it" kind of learner but I changed my mind due to various situations. While I am not for "faking a native" in terms of accent and such things, I am all for trying to remove my handicap caused by my native language in time. I think we have stated all the arguments and examples but I'll read, if you find more and find it worthy further discussion. Thanks for a lot of food for thought. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5052 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 48 of 81 10 June 2015 at 2:53pm | IP Logged | ||
|
I don't use circumlocutions often. When I travel, I am well prepared for most situations. Occasionally I may need something for which I can't possibly prepare or know the vocabulary associated with it. My levels in both Spanish and Portuguese allow me to travel with ease in both the hispanophone and lusophone world. People don't switch to English with me. I think we all run up on such situations from time to time where we may not have had much exposure in a second language.
That's it. I'm out. No more vocabulary threads for me! 2 persons have voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
