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Benny Lewis’ journey with Arabic | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4502 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 17 of 79 23 March 2013 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
To travel. Benny is a traveller, not a language learner. He learns languages to travel, he doesn't travel to learn languages. They are a social tool for him. I also don't understand how you draw that last conclusion. Also, why can't you learn how to spesk Arabic in 6 months? Or Chinese? If I was surrounded by the language full time, I am sure I would improve at a breakneck rate too. Forcing no English, constantly going outside and socialising and using grammar cleverly to improve your speaking skills are very good techniques to improve quickly. No, you won't speak PERFECTLY after 6 months. But then, native speakers don't speak perfectly after 6 months either. And many natives make mistakes in their own language. Some foreigners spell way better than natives, for example. But he can do anything that he needs to be able to do to live his lifestyle, and thus he is fine. That he isn't perfect is a given, and that some of the languages he has spent more time on are better at a detailed level is also a given, but that doesn't preclude you or anybody else from making progress in 6 months. And remember that his readership are people who need to be encouraged. And trust me, I would be sorely dissatisfied with myself if I noticed no progress after three months immersion in a country. You can improve at idiotic rates if you just know how to.
I cannot judge for his pronunciation in those languages, but in fairness, he said he is not always mistaken for a native, only at times. Do read properly, his claim is not that he is ALWAYS mistaken for a native, he only can pass in certain situations. That's fine, I could probably do the same thing. I notice that his French isn't 100% native either. So what? 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6392 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 18 of 79 23 March 2013 at 5:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Let's please not start new threads every time Benny posts a video?
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| tiger Newbie United Kingdom Joined 4110 days ago 15 posts - 27 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 19 of 79 23 March 2013 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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@gogglehead
Well said. I think you can get much more valuable data on how difficult Mandarin really is from people like Vladimir (also a member here) who learned 9 other languages (incl. Hungarian) before and says Mandarin Chinese is the most difficult thing he has ever coped with. Vladimir says there are not that many words you can guess, while Benny says there are tons of them. Vladimir says the grammar (the different mentality and no real patterns (-ar, -er, -ir verbs in Spanish)) was the most difficult part of his learning, while Benny and many others say Chinese has no grammar at all. Maybe not in the Westerner viewpoint grammar sense. But Vladimir says there are certain sentences he can't build out top of his head to the present day. Now who has more credibility? Someone who has spent several years studying the language with a full immersion in Taiwan or someone who scratched the surface after lousy 3 months which is not enough for fluency even in Esperanto.* ......... Some people say he only wrote the article for the sake of his readers who want to tackle difficult languages such as Mandarin, but choose IDK Dutch, because they get intimidated. I get that. But the readers would find out eventually that there's a difference between speaking in the language and being fluent. Arabic. Ditto. *Even though the grammar can be learned. There is this vast vocab needed for fluency which even divided by the prefix mal- cannot be absorbed in mere 3 months. Edited by tiger on 23 March 2013 at 6:10pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4502 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 20 of 79 23 March 2013 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Yes? What does this say about Benny? Not much. The only information you can reliably glean from this statement is that Vladimir Skultety found Chinese hard. That might be true. But that doesn't mean Benny has to think anything about Chinese. Experiences differ between languages, and I've also heard people talk about Mandarin and not say it is extremely hard. Difficulty is a question of mentality.
Cite both of them in context. General statement designed to incite.
People have different views on grammar. I myself have never studied Chinese, so I can't comment on its difficulty, but my understanding is that Chinese uses a different method to express concepts that is foreign to people speaking, say, Spanish or Icelandic. Ok, but what that means is that you need to change your brain functions to suit the way Chinese logic works, it has nothing to do with how inherently difficult the grammar is.
Credibility on stating what exactly? In what way is your definition of fluency better than Benny's?
All grammar can be learned. Don't see your point here. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Sterogyl Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4162 days ago 152 posts - 263 votes Studies: German*, French, EnglishC2 Studies: Japanese, Norwegian | Message 21 of 79 23 March 2013 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Yes but he's making money by telling people how to learn languages in 3 months. And he's a translator (isn't he?).
Because he's making videos in which he speaks several languages while showing the respective flag of the country whose language he's speaking.
Because it's not enough. But define "speaking" first. Please bear in mind that languages like Arabic or Chinese or Japanese take much longer to learn than easier ones. I know many people who studied Japanese and even stayed a year abroad but still don't speak it very well. That is more than common. :/
Perfection is a distant goal when it comes to language learning. ;)
Indeed.
But he claims to reach a C1 level / become fluent in 3 months. I don't think that this is possible. Granted, if you study hard for 6 months, there is no way you won't make any progress at all. But not C1/fluency (at least what I would consider as fluency) in Chinese or Arabic.
I agree. His texts are quite motivating, it's true. I have a hard time to believe some of the things he writes, though.
It is very far from being 'native'. Did he claim he has a native level in French??!! I hope not. It will most probably never be native-like, even if he lives in France for the next 30 years. Native is not the same as 'fluency'. He speaks French quite well and he can communicate effectively, but he's not a native speaker at all. And he doesn't need to. So you're right when you say 'so what?'. By the way is it true that he actually wants to be a travel writer instead of a 'linguist' and tries to get a foothold in this field by writing his language blog? 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Hekje Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 4498 days ago 842 posts - 1330 votes Speaks: English*, Dutch Studies: French, Indonesian | Message 22 of 79 23 March 2013 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I enjoyed the Arabic video! It's good to see more unscripted videos from Benny. Or,
honestly, just anyone still working through the intermediate stage in a language. As I am one of the few people here who started language learning because of Benny's site, I couldn't help but humbly put in my two cents about its intent. Much has been said about Benny making language learning sound (too) easy and fun. But two years ago, a few weeks away from traveling to the Netherlands, I needed to hear exactly that. My only other experience with languages was in school. As silly as it sounds, this set me up to believe that any studying of mine would only yield results 4+ years later. As I needed the language then, not in 2015, I would have simply not started had I not read Benny's site. Benny's site emphasizes using a language practically: i.e., just going out there and appreciating what you can do. This was great for someone like me who didn't know you could use a language imperfectly. Based on Benny's advice, I would go out grocery shopping in Dutch with only a month of the language under my belt. Those mini-missions started building a foundation in Dutch that supports me to this day. As a native English-speaker, it was especially important for me to know that you could solve your problems in English, but it just isn't as fun as when you use your target language. So the blog is likely not relevant to the veterans here, but it's perfect for spreading the joy of learning to language saplings like me. That's the true value of his site. It's also a gateway drug to other wonderful language learning communities like this one, which I now feel privileged to be a part of. Edit for clarity Edited by Hekje on 23 March 2013 at 7:51pm 8 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| tiger Newbie United Kingdom Joined 4110 days ago 15 posts - 27 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 23 of 79 23 March 2013 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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@tarvos
"Experiences differ between languages, and I've also heard people talk about Mandarin and not say it is extremely hard." Me too. But did the people you talked to reach advanced fluency in Chinese? If I study Spanish for one week and Mandarin for one week. I may tell you at the end that Chinese is easier. Because "soy, han sido, fuiste, eramos, estaban, había estado" and many many more froms of the verbs ser an estar are substituted by simple 是 in Mandarin. And people who tell us this have never gotten past the intermediate level. You cannot judge the language or review it after 3 months. For example. I don't know what the big deal is with Spanish subjunctive mood. People keep complaining about it, but it's quite simple. But that doesn't mean I have mastered it and can use it in all the possible situations effortlessly after 5 months of studies. "Cite both of them in context. General statement designed to incite." Benny "Learning new vocabulary in Chinese is incredibly intuitive. This more than makes up for the fact that you aren’t given a head start with a large list of cognates – it almost seems too easy at times when you hear a brand new word and instantly know what it means, whereas in many European languages you would be able to offer nothing but a blank expression back." Vlad "The reason why I’m saying this is that there is no “safe” system which would help you guess the meanings of unknown words of Chinese origin based on the first 500 – 1000 words that you learned before. In other words knowing more and more words of purely Chinese origin will not automatically make it easier for you to recognize new words of Chinese origin as you go." "In short, you have to learn almost every single Mandarin word by heart, simple or difficult, international or strictly Chinese. " ............................................ "Credibility on stating what exactly? In what way is your definition of fluency better than Benny's? " Well. If you wanted to learn say Korean. Would you rather take tips from someone who majored in Korean literature and spent half their life in South Korea or someone who learned a little bit of Korean in 5-6 months. Now both Benny and Vlad have learned languages before tackling Mandarin, so there's no doubt they both have experience in language learning. My definition of fluency? I don't know. Maybe when I can write this post entirely in Spanish with as few mistakes as possible. Definitely not a B1 level. I'm B1 in Spanish. What does it mean? I can function in the language and it's a great foundation, but if I went to watch say Amores Perros, I wouldn't understand more than 30% without subs. I would probably get the main idea. But hey that's not fluent in my book. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| tiger Newbie United Kingdom Joined 4110 days ago 15 posts - 27 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 24 of 79 23 March 2013 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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EDIT:
I'm not really the one who should tell you how difficult Mandarin is. All I can amount to is heavily accented 在中国你住哪里？ But ask Mike Campbell, ask John from sinosplice or the Frenchie who speaks native-like Mandarin. Ask them if it was easy. They are far more competent in this field than someone who did a little bit of Michel Thomas. Or Benny. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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