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Avoidance of shall

  Tags: Morphology | English
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Iversen
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 Message 9 of 37
16 October 2012 at 4:52pm | IP Logged 
beano wrote:
We have other peculiarities, eg "should have went" is VERY commonly heard up here.

newyorkeric wrote:
This is really common where I grew up as well. It's so common, in fact, it was several years after I left until I realized it was incorrect.


As far as I am concerned it is correct in Scotland.
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tarvos
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 Message 10 of 37
16 October 2012 at 4:56pm | IP Logged 
Mani wrote:
I think her native German is interfering at this point. In German you can
ask a question/make a suggestion with both verbs "sollen" and "wollen".

So it would be perfectly normal (at least for me) to ask: "Sollen wir einkaufen?/Wollen
wir einkaufen?" or "Sollen wir essen?/Wollen wir essen?"


It is possible, but they are not perfectly interchangeable imho. Sollen gives me the idea
that we should eat (because we will probably get hungry otherwise) and wollen implies an
intention (do we want to eat, or do we want to do something else).
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Josquin
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 Message 11 of 37
16 October 2012 at 7:21pm | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
Mani wrote:
I think her native German is interfering at this point. In German you can
ask a question/make a suggestion with both verbs "sollen" and "wollen".

So it would be perfectly normal (at least for me) to ask: "Sollen wir einkaufen?/Wollen
wir einkaufen?" or "Sollen wir essen?/Wollen wir essen?"


It is possible, but they are not perfectly interchangeable imho. Sollen gives me the idea
that we should eat (because we will probably get hungry otherwise) and wollen implies an
intention (do we want to eat, or do we want to do something else).


Sorry, tarvos. "Sollen wir jetzt essen?" means exactly the same as "Wollen wir jetzt essen?". There's no difference whatsoever.
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kanewai
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 Message 12 of 37
16 October 2012 at 9:03pm | IP Logged 
newyorkeric wrote:
Americans also rarely use shall. It sounds too much like a
declaration like MacArthur's "I shall return."

I start humming "Shall We Dance?" as soon as I see the word. I don't think I've ever
used it in real life.
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tarvos
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 Message 13 of 37
17 October 2012 at 12:31am | IP Logged 
Josquin wrote:
tarvos wrote:
Mani wrote:
I think her native German is interfering
at this point. In German you can
ask a question/make a suggestion with both verbs "sollen" and "wollen".

So it would be perfectly normal (at least for me) to ask: "Sollen wir einkaufen?/Wollen
wir einkaufen?" or "Sollen wir essen?/Wollen wir essen?"


It is possible, but they are not perfectly interchangeable imho. Sollen gives me the
idea
that we should eat (because we will probably get hungry otherwise) and wollen implies
an
intention (do we want to eat, or do we want to do something else).


Sorry, tarvos. "Sollen wir jetzt essen?" means exactly the same as "Wollen wir jetzt
essen?". There's no difference whatsoever.


My bad then
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vonPeterhof
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 Message 14 of 37
17 October 2012 at 7:36am | IP Logged 
Anybody else heard of the rule that "shall" is supposed to be used in the first person while "will" is for the second and third? A fellow Russian with extremely prescriptivist views on language (he apparently considers standard US English "less correct" than standard UK English) told me that he was taught this rule in middle school, and my father also recalls being taught that back in the Soviet days, but I had never heard of it before the former told me. He asked me whether or not Gandalf's "You shall not pass!" was grammatically incorrect. After doing some research I found that this rule apparently has an exception for emphatic phrases, where the usage is reversed (will for first person and shall for the other two), thus making Gandalf's declaration "grammatically correct". The text where I found that explanation also stated that the rule is pretty much non-existent in modern US English, due to the word "shall" itself becoming antiquated, and is on its way out in the UK as well. Has anybody else here been taught this at school?

Edited by vonPeterhof on 17 October 2012 at 7:37am
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Ogrim
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 Message 15 of 37
17 October 2012 at 8:38am | IP Logged 
vonPeterhof wrote:
Anybody else heard of the rule that "shall" is supposed to be used in the first person while "will" is for the second and third? A fellow Russian with extremely prescriptivist views on language (he apparently considers standard US English "less correct" than standard UK English) told me that he was taught this rule in middle school, and my father also recalls being taught that back in the Soviet days, but I had never heard of it before the former told me. He asked me whether or not Gandalf's "You shall not pass!" was grammatically incorrect. After doing some research I found that this rule apparently has an exception for emphatic phrases, where the usage is reversed (will for first person and shall for the other two), thus making Gandalf's declaration "grammatically correct". The text where I found that explanation also stated that the rule is pretty much non-existent in modern US English, due to the word "shall" itself becoming antiquated, and is on its way out in the UK as well. Has anybody else here been taught this at school?


According to the Wikipedia article I referred to earlier, shall can be used for 1st person when it simply refers to the future:

Quote: "Will is typically used in all persons to express simple futurity:
    I will grow old some day.
    Will they be here tomorrow?
Shall can also be used for this purpose in the first person (with "I" and "we").
    I shall grow old some day.
    We shall all grow old some day."
This usage has been presented as compulsory by some prescriptivist grammarians of British English. (End of quote)

The article then goes on to describe what it calls "coloured future use of shall:
Quote: "Shall has been used in the past in the second and third persons to imply that the will of the subject is not being taken into account, such as to make a promise, command or threat:
    You shall regret it before long. (My threat)
    You shall not pass! (My command)
    You shall go to the ball. (My promise)
These statements would bear fewer connotations of formality, seriousness, and/or pretentiousness if "shall" were replaced with "will", but the general meaning would not change. (End of quote)

So to answer your question, yes, it seems that prescriptivists think that "shall" shall be used (no pun intended) in 1st person, although reality tells something different.

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Ari
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 Message 16 of 37
17 October 2012 at 10:01am | IP Logged 
Wow, that's a really interesting rule! I wonder who invented it and whether it ever reflected actual usage? I'm gonna have to email Language Log about this when I get home!

Regarding "should have went", it's certainly correct in many places. Google tells me that except Scotland, it's also common in Iowa, USA, and also that a lot of people are really really upset about it, making me think of adopting it myself. Globally, however, it's a lot less common than "gone", it would seem.

But the real question is of course: what's the past participle of "stride"?


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