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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6965 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes  20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 33 of 42 22 April 2011 at 12:10am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
This is somewhat surprising considering that the spirit of helping other travellers or visitors is common to Hospitality Club, Couchsurfing and Pasporta Servo. At any rate, I stated that some people on PS are on CS - deduced from 68 CSers on CS' PS group which fits the definition of "some". Although as a percentage, I'm still surprised that it's that tiny (68 on 2000 is 3.4%).
Yet CS now counts about 2700000 members (HC has about 600000) despite its youth to PS. I'm coming increasingly to the conclusion that Esperantists jealously elevate PS largely because Esperanto is not spoken by that many people (even the number of Couchsurfers outnumbers the most optimistic accounting for the number of Esperantists (~ 2 million)). This leads to the results that: 1) It's a fairly big deal for other Esperantists to meet each other randomly or not (this is no different from speakers of "small" or low-profile languages. For example, I've noticed how Estonians can be very pleased meeting other Estonians outside Estonia (or hearing foreigners speak Estonian) partially because Estonian is spoken by barely 1 million people worldwide). On a related note, the relatively small number also seems to support a sort of "specialness" (critics may less charitably call it snobbery) and this only reinforces the validation Esperantists feel about Esperanto or their choice to learn it. 2) Pasporta Servo is a big part of Esperanto culture because it's an affirmation of the utility of Esperanto (to Esperantists that is) but seems to have arisen as a formalization of the spirit of Esperantists helping other Esperantists. At its most fundamental, this isn't really Earth-shattering since people united by anything common (religion, language, profession, blood etc.) have been doing this kind of targeted help for centuries. Hypothetically, if there were a hospitality/travelling group for speakers of Slovenian only, then this Slovenian travel group would become a Slovenian cultural marker. In other words, understandable and desirable as PS is (especially for Esperantists), what makes it stand out from the otherwise similar CS and HC is Esperanto (which noticeably filters the potential membership pool but gives it a cache depending on whom you talk to) and the group's respective ages (although I doubt that potential travellers are turned off by CS just because it's "younger" than HC, not to mention PS). PS doesn't have a monopoly on informal cultural exchange or travellers' support when we look at the functioning of CS and HC, which I believe transcends linguistic boundaries.
Indeed. The key is to broaden cultural vistas, and the best way is to meet local people or when the roles are reversed, give insight into one's native culture to visitors in a non-intrusive and relaxed setting. Who cares that the shared language could be English, Arabic, Swahili, Mandarin, Guarani, Esperanto or whatever else in these encounters? 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6965 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 35 of 42 22 April 2011 at 3:09am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
With this post I will try to steer the thread away from it morphing into other pissing match about the virtues or vices of Esperanto (*sigh*). *** Over time I've come to realize that the idea that an equation between language and culture can be quite flawed and that using a language as a proxy for some cultural aspect (good or bad) is just not a great idea. Learning a language to understand a cultural dimension is common (in fact it's part of the criteria that I use when picking a new language to study), however this tends to work when the correspondence or association of language and culture is fairly clear. When it comes to pluricentric languages, then all bets are off. Arekkusu touched on this when he mentioned that learning French doesn't necessarily help in understanding Québecois culture. It's fine if your knowledge of French gives you the basic linguistic background so that you can get access to texts, TV shows, books, etc. dealing with Québecois themes/culture/whatever that would be not available to you if you did not know French. However wouldn't a good translation go a good way to helping you in this "cultural exploration"? How about making friends with Québeckers who are fluent in both English and French and can offer their take on "Québecois stuff" or introduce you to the culture? Appreciation or exploration of a new culture can be independent of learning a nominally associated language (although it doesn't necessarily hinder it as I've noted earlier). Take music for instance. I enjoy listening to Béla Bartók's instrumental pieces and have done so even before I could speak some Hungarian (I actually came to like Bartók through such music as his songs or arrangements of folksongs never really interested me). Since having come to like Bartók's music, I've learned some Hungarian. Yet it's not as if my appreciation of Bartók's music has grown or become "more authentic" because now I can speak some of the native language of Bartók. As time went on, I made friends with Hungarians, travelled to areas inhabited by Hungarians and got more exposure to their culture in the flesh. Yet I came to realize that my imperfect grasp of the language was no barrier at all since it was the people and their actions who made the culture. They wanted to make sure that I got exposed to various aspects of Hungarian culture but at times explained that some aspects of Hungarian culture or their outlook will defy the understanding of a non-Hungarian regardless of how well that non-Hungarian knows Hungarian. Understanding culture goes beyond knowing how to use grammar or speak with "right" accent since some of it just comes by osmosis merely by interacting with regularly people identifying with that culture or exploring certain cultural touchstones. Basically I believe that if you would like to learn some culture, then go for it, but realize that it goes beyond learning a language (e.g. do you believe that mastering Farsi would get you to fully "understand" Iranian culture?). Think of all of the people out there who are fluent in English. Could all of those non-natives of English truly say that they understand English (or American, or Australian, or Canadian etc.) culture? You'd also have to be willing to "think" like the people who belong to that foreign culture and fluency in a language doesn't necessarily do it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6248 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 36 of 42 22 April 2011 at 3:14am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Depends on what you want. If you want a pleasant experience in a foreign country, you're absolutely right. If you want to learn about the culture, reading about it and talking about it in a language I already know is more useful than learning it to a survival level and then using it to order meals and ask for directions. Learning it to a conversational/independent level is better than either, but takes significantly more work.
No one would say "don't learn Russian, you might go to China someday." I find this kind of argument against choosing to learn Esperanto rather odd. Yes, it's not particularly useful with people you randomly bump into in most places - but neither is almost any other language.
Cultural insight and basic tourism have surprisingly little in common. I'm not arguing against learning some of the local language in any place you visit; it's usually a very good idea. The feasibility of this varies, depending on factors such as how long you'd stay. But this is entirely irrelevant to the question asked by the person starting this thread, who explicitly said he's interested in cultural broadening, not travel.
Where did that rant come from? Most of it is true, and most of it is irrelevant to both the original question and everything I've said. That said, for what it's worth: - I agree that learning a bit of local languages is important and useful. - If you had to pick English or Esperanto as a language to learn to try to survive as a tourist encountering random people, picking English is a no-brainer. - This is a discussion in English, replying to a native English speaker. The benefits of learning English are somewhat irrelevant to him, in a way. If he didn't speak English, and was very interested in lots of short-term travel to lots of locations, he would definitely benefit from learning it - but that's not the situation here. -
Why construct strawmen and make absolutes out of things which I've explicitly said are not the case? - I've traveled, both before and after learning Esperanto. While I've met extremely helpful and friendly and communicative people via English, it's almost the norm via Esperanto, and people routinely (not universally) go out of their way more than they do via English. Perfect strangers who speak Esperanto generally are about as kind and helpful as good friends, in my experience - it's a bit disorienting at first, but amazing. I've spent most of my life in international environments. I've never seen any other community which fosters cultural interchange and understanding to the degree that Esperanto does. Lots of them theoretically could - but they don't. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6248 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 37 of 42 22 April 2011 at 3:23am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Good idea.
It's essentially a matter of depth. A shallow knowledge of a language won't grant you much cultural insight. A shallow knowledge of a culture won't grant you much in the way of language ability (some terms, probably, but not much more). Knowing a culture in any depth requires knowing its language to a fairly high level. Knowing a language to a conversational level doesn't require knowing much about culture; mastering it thoroughly does (although your points about pluricentricism are quite valid). You can learn a lot about the Québecois without speaking French. You'll learn more by reading specific texts that are meant to bring people up to speed than by randomly browsing French-language media, even if those texts are in English. But there comes a point where having access to original material, not just translations and friends, is vital. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| jsun Groupie Joined 4894 days ago 62 posts - 129 votes | Message 38 of 42 22 April 2011 at 10:01am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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"Easy" should not be related to "broaden".
No pain no gain. And always look BEYOND Mandarin if you want to know more about East Asian culture. Standard Mandarin is an artificial language created for the use as a common language so the culture you get from it is limited. 
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| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6279 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 39 of 42 22 April 2011 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
I do not believe that the situation is as rosy as that. Sure, Goethe has been translated into lots of languages, including Esperanto (some of them translated by Zamenhof himself). However, Goethe is high literature that you forcedly read at school and few people remember much afterwards. Goethe's influence on an average German's life is negligible - a few expressions that entered the German language, that's all. A writer who had a much bigger influence is Karl May. Karl May's books have been standard boys' reading in Germany much like the Adventures of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn are in America. You'll be hard pressed to find someone who hasn't read him. And this has single-handedly caused the great fascination many Germans have for Native Americans. Even hiking through remote parts of the Black Forest I came across a pow- wow, organized by a group of several dozen *adult* Germans whose hobby is to study and preserve Native American traditional crafts and rituals. Such groups are not uncommon all over Germany, and Karl May is to blame for the most part. Yet has anyone heard of him abroad? Of his 91 "collected works", none of them has been translated to English (for part of two books there are public-domain "translations" that change everything about the books including the name and character of the protagonists). If translators can miss such a big part of German culture, I'm not holding my hopes out for less accessible cultures like the Chinese one. I've been looking for English translations of popular Chinese authors in order to be able to create parallel texts; they are hard to come by (English authors in Chinese is a lot easier). For now I'm creating a Chinese- Esperanto parallel text of Ba Jin, which also has the advantage of being closer to the original. With movies it's about the same, though the decision to translate or not appears more random. "Das Experiment" and "Lola rennt" have been translated to English. But you know what Germans watch a whole lot more often? "Die Feuerzangenbowle". Watching "Die Feuerzangenbowle" while drinking the beverage in question is a traditional thing to do for a party in November or December. In some regions, there is even a set day to do it. It has certainly influenced German culture more than "Lola rennt" has. Yet there is no official translation of the movie, and the English fansub somebody uploaded is full of errors and left-out dialog, obviously done by a student of German. I like that Esperanto translations are usually a work of love, done without consideration for the marketability and ROI but rather with the purpose of introducing people to interesting parts of one's culture, especially if the works aren't already readily accessible through other national languages. It would be great to have a task force of people dedicated to doing this kind of work for English; unlikely though because there's a different philosophy linked to English. For an approximation, look at what people are translating to Esperanto these days and try to find those works in a language you speak; they're bound to improve your understanding of foreign cultures. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Lucky Charms Diglot Senior Member Japan lapacifica.net Joined 6758 days ago 752 posts - 1711 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: German, Spanish | Message 40 of 42 23 April 2011 at 7:04am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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I think the OP's motivation is a good one, and in my experience, learning non-Western
foreign language to fluency (i.e. to the point where I could read/watch media comfortably in the language and have a conversation without burdening the speaker by making him dumb down his speech for me) was the best thing I ever did to broaden my worldview. Before that, I had been reading books on Japan, watching translated Japanese media, etc., and I see now what a world of difference it makes to view it "from the inside". A while ago, I came across a blog post that sums up my feelings quite well, at [http://drivers99.wordpress.com/]. The post is called "Cult of the Dead Cow, and the reason to learn the language". The poster writes that his greatest motivation to learn Japanese is "books that were never intended for me to read, people I would never have been able to talk to, sights I would never see without going there myself... the stuff that I don’t even know that I’m missing yet." A commenter adds, "It isn’t just a matter of getting lost in translation, but the selection of materials that get translated in the first place." I couldn't agree more. There are many ideas from the Japanese world translated for us, but these ideas are filtered by the people who decide what gets translated in the first place, how to translate it, how it's going to be marketed, how accessible it's going to be..... and even then, when it gets to us, presented in the way that has been deemed most suitable for us, we interpret it through our own cultural lens because that's all we know. This is why I agree with Volte that translations won't take you deeply enough... but you have to reach a high enough level in the language before you can reap the benefits here. As for language suggestions, it seems to me also that Hindi, Persian, Indonesian, and perhaps Turkish would be the easiest languages that are linguistically removed from English (although I'm sure you know that Persian and Hindi are in the Indo-European family, they're not transparent at all to English speakers). Something closer to home might be French (which, obviously, is not only spoken in Canada and France), Spanish, or Portuguese, as others have suggested. While fascinating in themselves, I don't think exotic linguistic features have much correlation to how "different" a people's way of thinking is, so there are probably no bonus points for venturing outside the European languages in and of itself (for example, Japanese uses no articles, no future tense, and SOV word order, and hardly ever uses personal pronouns, but this ultimately gives zero insight into the Japanese mind. Of far greater interest is their views on individuality vs. the group, their social heirarchies, the role of the workplace in their lives, what it means to be an adult to them, changing gender roles, etc., which the aforementioned linguistic features give zero insight into. So for your purposes, I believe there would be little advantage choosing a non-IE language over, say, a French African dialect or Brazilian Portuguese.) Edited by Lucky Charms on 23 April 2011 at 7:13am 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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