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Learning japanese

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32 messages over 4 pages: 1 24  Next >>
sammiad
Newbie
United Kingdom
Joined 3758 days ago

26 posts - 28 votes
Studies: English*, Spanish, Japanese

 
 Message 17 of 32
11 January 2010 at 4:22pm | IP Logged 
If anyone could explain the L-R method (by siomotteikiru) id appreciate it. Ive tried some reading but i find myself using the pop up dictionary on everything in a article and guessing at the sentances meaning. I'm not sure if this is the way to go, but im still reading something about a trip to a hot spring.
But with audio added and a translation ,with L-R, the order in which to do them is greater.
(also the term translation confused me becuase some books authors are English so the translation would be the target language)

i think its;
1) read text in own language
2) listen to audio (target language) while reading target language
3) listen to audio and read own language
4) speak audio (possibly shadow it )or reading outloud the target text. or ofcourse a combination or both.
5) translate from own language to target language.either in writing or spoken.

i would think lots of repition would have to be done on many of the steps, for something thats used on books it would be a very long process.

I should get back to learning now, as i think i spend more time reading this forum than acutally on japanese, which would slow my progress down even more.



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sammiad
Newbie
United Kingdom
Joined 3758 days ago

26 posts - 28 votes
Studies: English*, Spanish, Japanese

 
 Message 18 of 32
13 January 2010 at 12:19pm | IP Logged 
a couple of mornings this week i tried to understand conjugations (i think thats what they are called). The correct endings of verbs adjectives for negative past and short forms. But the genki book confused me again, i think i work visually, needing to "see" which bits change . But i cant follow the process of conversion , i think sometimes it goes from dictionary form, others short form , some negative .

ice <> <> water <> <> steam.
ice <> steam

I'm not sure if there is a big need to be able to convert from one to another or just recognise the endings but with so many groups , and in those groups different things happen making more subgroups, i cant nail anything to the first bit.

Its like them simple addition/subtraction calculations , where numbers or symbols are entered in the correct order to work something out.
2 + [ ] = 3 , [ ] - 5 = 20 .

certain elements are added or taken away to get you where you want to go.

i dont think there is one big catch all, so i dont think everything is one step from the dictionary form, or starts off as present positive, it might even not be one system like you can convert from one thing to another.
unfortunately after a while i just go around and question wether i know even the long form.

[long] > [long past]
[long] > [long neg]
[long neg] > [long neg past]

[long] > [short]

[short] > [short neg]
[short] > [short past]
[short neg] > [short neg past]

i think thats every "over group", and it can be split into circles/triangles of past or negative (above is long and short) but the conjucations shouldnt change. verbs adjc im not sure how to work those in wihtout copying and making another table.


does anyone have any advice on this, like what to learn first or only conjucation one way then when thats learnt move on....
im now off to try a chart with flashcards arrows and + - bits.
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sammiad
Newbie
United Kingdom
Joined 3758 days ago

26 posts - 28 votes
Studies: English*, Spanish, Japanese

 
 Message 19 of 32
15 January 2010 at 4:06pm | IP Logged 
I spent the other morning with my genki book open and paper that i cut up to usually make flash cards, and wrote the various changing endings . So now i think i have those, atleast in a semi organised board. (the te-form at the top ru, u tsu ru , mu bu nu , ku/gu , su . )

[short past]          [short]
[short neg past]      [short neg]

with roughly how each ending changes underneth and to the side , becuase sometimes the verbs change with the te form and others they are all grouped etc.
i think itll help me get there so hopefully over time ill revise it, or not need it at all.

I'm still breaking down the kanji backlog, currently on 60. when thats done i'll open up RTK and get back to the never seen before ones, starting with "outhouse".

I've also let the vocab list go. I'm not sure it was working for me as i couldnt even remember the words in English i was trying to remember. But im still doing the smart.fm kanji odyssey which gives kanji and the reading which is everything so apart from some obscure ones like tropical rain forest and snowplough/snowplow its going good.

I think i should give another go to genki , particularly the questions but some of it was pair work and the rest nothing to do with the dialogues, so that confused me previously. perhaps writing it down so its got somewhere to go rather than vaguely answering it outloud.
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sammiad
Newbie
United Kingdom
Joined 3758 days ago

26 posts - 28 votes
Studies: English*, Spanish, Japanese

 
 Message 20 of 32
22 January 2010 at 3:00pm | IP Logged 
I've ordered Assimil book one, its epected to come in february so a long wait.
I hope that its got a structure/method that i can follow through easily, guided rather than bits and bobs.
I'm also thinking about Japanese the manga way, as something to bring together bit, and explain grammar more. Also if it would help me read some manga ive got (i forget the name) itll be a good step forward. ive not baught it yet becuase i feel i should read and work with what i have..... but im very tempted.


Anki
kanji -im down to 20 , so today or tomorrow ill finish that and write out then input a couple of pages. As usual its just systematically doing anything thats the trouble.
sentances - im writing out sentances from (basic japanese sentance patterns) and entering them, this should help push in the hirigana joiners.
words - for vocab and kanji im copying out frequent ones like 日 人d with common newspaper words that they contain so combining reading (sound) picture. ive not done much of this yet

Rosseta stone
Aside from the 30 min lessons im not sure what im learning with this still.... i suppose its easy and all going in especially when shadowing it. its all bite size not too overwhelming.
currently mid way through cd 2.

pimsleur
i occasionally listen but ive not really done it while working on a transcript, most of the current stuff has been familiar, but often i cant answer before they do, so i guess i just shadow.
CD 2 , lesson 11.

For more ideas and just cuase i find it interesting ive been browing the forum and collecting links on sentances/vocab. Also ive been reading a pdf on sucess , a essay on various people with different ways they learn. and im trying to finish that and move onto somethign similar, "lessons learned from 50 years ..." , from a quick scan im not sure how much practical help it would be though.

Smartfm
Genki
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sammiad
Newbie
United Kingdom
Joined 3758 days ago

26 posts - 28 votes
Studies: English*, Spanish, Japanese

 
 Message 21 of 32
23 January 2010 at 9:50pm | IP Logged 
While scripting some sentances from a Basic Sentance Pattern Book i paused and wondered how i translated thing. I'm not sure if the term translated is correct, or if its better to just know what the sentance says without converting it to your original language.
The sentance was written in English as something like
I shop before i go home.

but in japanese it is
わたしはうちへかえるまえにかいものをしま す。
watashi wa uchi e kaeru mae ni kaimono o shimasu.

I think one reading it first time i figure out what means what , and knowing that the sentance struck works backwards, i go literal.

i home return/go , before shop do.

i think this is as far as i got, i dont know if i even made a decent English sentance out of it. i guess a full understandable English translation would help if you wanted to have two clear sentances in their respective languages, but when learning whats what i find the more literal one better.
this made me wonder wether i should be fully translating or keeping them seperate .
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sammiad
Newbie
United Kingdom
Joined 3758 days ago

26 posts - 28 votes
Studies: English*, Spanish, Japanese

 
 Message 22 of 32
26 January 2010 at 3:57pm | IP Logged 
Ive tried a little bit of sentances work, righting them out and entering them into anki. The trouble is that i might have entered some in incorrectly and got some incomplete tranlations... shame.


Also tried L-R with kokoro, that i got from sheetz's log. but i still have no idea how to learn from listening to l2 and reading l1. So far ive only read l2 while listening to l2.

1 person has voted this message useful



sammiad
Newbie
United Kingdom
Joined 3758 days ago

26 posts - 28 votes
Studies: English*, Spanish, Japanese

 
 Message 23 of 32
27 January 2010 at 1:36pm | IP Logged 
I had a learning moment earlier, it wasnt a language learning moment but it can still explain a little something.
While sight reading with my sax tutor and she realised wether even or not it wasnt a problem until i tried to count or work something out. Which was a complete surprise becuase i normally try to figure out whats going on/why / how to do it , a kindof concentrating which in that case was the problem.

I suppose that would mean i should relax a bit while doing things, but it would be helpful if i could find a way that works for me.
what to do. why to do it. how to do it.
Becuase once you've nailled all of that, there isnt anything else.

1 person has voted this message useful



sammiad
Newbie
United Kingdom
Joined 3758 days ago

26 posts - 28 votes
Studies: English*, Spanish, Japanese

 
 Message 24 of 32
28 January 2010 at 10:08pm | IP Logged 
This morning a copy of "Japanese the manga way" and after a little read i'm hopeful that it will be a great help. It looks good with gradually increasing elements. so far ive briefly covered ね、よ 、 ending particles.

I also returned to RTK, and flashcarded about 10 more, ill look over them tonight and enter in anki in the morning. With the confusion and lack of progression with reading it feels good to remember some kanji.


I also found several kids storys so i think ill try reading them before attempting other works, becuase it looks just above my head rather than massively over my head.


http://web.archive.org/web/20080105001945/www.ba.tyg.jp/~wel chr/Chung.html
this link was found from that site, and had an slight variation on L-R method.
starting with listeningin, dictation, reading aloud, then using the dictionary (presumably working out everything you dont currently get)

I thought it was interesting having the listening then dictation as kindof complimentary elements.

Along with the kids story i grabbed The night of the milkyway railroad, which ill try L-R , or atleast a make shift form of it becuase im not sure i can get my head around listening in l2 and reading in l1... maybe i just need improve on how i mix the two together.




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