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Russian pronunciation p vs pь | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Taipale Newbie United States Joined 4352 days ago 5 posts - 7 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Russian | Message 1 of 10 09 November 2012 at 10:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks to Spanish lessons, I can 'roll' my Rs pretty well. I think this corresponds to the Russian hard R? But when I lift the back of my tongue towards the palate to make the soft sound, the tip flips down and the vibration disappears. What makes matters worse is I can't hear any difference between the two, even when I listen to native speakers on tape. Could someone give me some tips on this? Thanks in advance.
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| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4655 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes  Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 2 of 10 09 November 2012 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, I'm working on my soft consonants as well. The best tip I can give is to pronounce the rolled r and a y-sound as in 'year' at the same time. Or if that doesn't work, try to say the y quickly after the r. For me, it's easiest to pronounce (and hear) a soft r at the end of words, such as Игорь. What I find even more difficult is telling apart hard and soft l and consciously distinguishing them in speech.
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| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4867 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 3 of 10 10 November 2012 at 8:07am | IP Logged | |||||
Again this "y". Palatalization and yotation are two different things in Russian. Inserting "y" will result in pья, рье and so on. There is no need to make any vibration while pronouncing a soft r, it’s a flap. It might be trilled only in songs, probably. The hard r can be a flap too. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4867 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 4 of 10 10 November 2012 at 11:36am | IP Logged | |||||
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAPbTc9Vzq8
Here you can hear a soft trill, in гори, for example. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4655 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 5 of 10 10 November 2012 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | |||||
I was only giving instructions how to come close to that sound. I didn't ask to insert a full "y", but to quickly pronounce it with the r, because that is exactly what it sounds like to non-Russians. Even the IPA gives a [ʲ] for palatalization, so it can't be that wrong, can it? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4867 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 6 of 10 10 November 2012 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
One of the most common mistakes made by foreigners in Russian is inserting [j] instead of palatalization. Then the correct way is to learn how to pronounce soft consonants independently. There is an i-like glide between a vowel and a soft r, if this vowel is not itself. So, in ряд there is a glide after the r, in фонарь the glide is before the r, and in три or прямой there are no glides at all. Anyway, one has to develop a Russian ear, that is to start hearing as Russians do, not as non-Russians. Edited by Марк on 10 November 2012 at 5:38pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4655 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 7 of 10 10 November 2012 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
Granted. But until you've developed that ear you need a makeshift solution to pronounce your soft consonants. For me, imagining a little 'y' (or 'j' in German) that is pronounced with the consonant worked quite well, as you said yourself that my soft consonants were not bad. I know this may not be phonetically accurate, but the important thing is that it works. After all, it takes time until one has really internalized the sounds of a foreign language. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4867 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 8 of 10 10 November 2012 at 5:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
That might be a way to learn soft consonants, but so many textbooks write it in such a way that a soft consonant is a hard consonant + y, while in Russian these are two different situations. And they might also say that hard consonants are like English (if they are for English speakers) consonants. That's why I wrote that message. Edited by Марк on 10 November 2012 at 5:50pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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