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Why do people hate Esperanto? | ||
Tags: Cultural Identity | Esperanto | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Esperanto |  | |
| mrhenrik Triglot Moderator Norway Joined 5889 days ago 482 posts - 658 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, English, French Personal Language Map | Message 57 of 72 07 July 2010 at 11:43pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
-10 forum points for taking half a sentence out of a three paragraph post and only responding to that. ;p The problem with taking half of a sentence only is that you miss out on the other half! In this case the rest of the sentence said "just like I don't care about a very large amount of the world's languages." I haven't participated in any threads about the language itself as far as I can remember, although I have made appearances in threads discussing things that lie behind the language, for a number of reasons I'll get back to.
This thread isn't about Esperanto. It's about Esperanto hate. The other thread I posted in was about ((according to some) blind) Esperanto love. There's a number of reasons why I'd post in a thread discussing things related to a language I don't really care about: I have an interest in keeping the forum civilised, and I'm a moderator. In that sequence. Both encourage me to try to keep easily heated discussions calm, as I find heated discussions silly and a waste of time - and often easily prevented, and also as a heated discussion generated a larger workload for us moderators. I posted in this thread, and the other one, to try to avoid having the discussion plunge into a good old flamewar. If someone in the first big heated Esperanto thread just said "Guys, you have different interpretations of the word "culture", there's no way you're going to agree on this" or something, perhaps we could've avoided eventually having to close down the thread. I generally enjoy a good discussion, and when I see people having views completely opposed to mine I want to try and find out why that is and whether it's just a communcation problem. Nobody does or say anything just to be a twat, generally people just misunderstand eachother and if that can be pointed out it's a major help. I would've done exactly the same in the discussions "Why I love Georgian" or "Why do people hate Klingon?".
Here we go..
I am, yes. Someone's going to have to do it, English is currently in a good position for it so I see few reasons for the major operation it would be to change it.
For me it's more unattainable. Esperanto for me would be meaningful if everyone spoke it. Most things short of that leaves it for me a rather meaningless language to learn, just like a minority language of India or something would be a meaningless language to learn.
Oh yes, that damn West. I support the current world order, and I see little point for it to change. That doesn't mean I sing God Save The Queen when I wake up in the morning and wish for English to dominate the entire world, but I think linguistically the world is fine right now. It might change, and that might be a shame, but it's always been changing. If English dominates the world completely it'll be split into dialects and then languages again.
Do you then consider Englishmen the subject matter experts on English's linguistic position? If so, why don't you accept their responses? 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6513 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 58 of 72 08 July 2010 at 12:59am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Luckily I don't feel that only Anglophones have the right to comment on the position of English. But English is so wellknown here that we don't see the worst cases of ignorance. For instance no one has yet suggested that English hasn't got a culture and a literature. But precisely that has happened in the case of Esperanto. I disagree with MrHenrik on one point: English has already developed some slight variations, but I don't see any sign that it will break up into mutually unintelligible languages - actually the whole planet shares the same music and soaps and news broadcasters, and this means that there is a common standard with just slight variations. This situation can in principle continue for as long as the international electronical networks continues to function. For Esperanto this has the effect that any remaining hope of becoming the international language now seems totally ludicrous. And as far as I can see nobody here actually believes that it will happen. What is left is a language with several million second language learners, a certain amount of literature and a enormous Wikipedia, but only a few truly native speakers, no army and no fleet. You can learn it if you want to have access to this international community or if you find it interesting for other reasons, and if you don't want to learn it then that's it - no reason to care about or even hate something that isn't a threat to anybody. Edited by Iversen on 08 July 2010 at 2:41am 10 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Romanist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5092 days ago 261 posts - 366 votes Studies: Italian | Message 59 of 72 24 July 2010 at 2:09pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
This seems to conflate two separate issues. People have written (and still do write) novels, poetry, etc in Esperanto - therefore it quite clearly does have a literature. But does this also imly a culture? Surely the whole point of Esperanto is that it transcends different cultures? Let's imagine that an Esperanto speaker in China is using the language as a medium for writing poetry; that poetry is surely going to be steeped in Chinese culture and identity? How can it not be? And if an Esperanto speaker in Holland is using the language to write novels, those novels are surely going to be a reflection of Dutch culture and identity? The beauty of this is that each of the above persons would be able to gain an insight into the personal culture of the other without having any linguistic barrier. (But the idea that all Esperanto speakers enjoy some kind of neutral mono-culture of their own..? Well, that seems slightly crazy to me...) 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| mrhenrik Triglot Moderator Norway Joined 5889 days ago 482 posts - 658 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, French Personal Language Map | Message 60 of 72 24 July 2010 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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I would assume an Esperanto culture in itself could develop as writers build upon works of earlier writers. Isn't this how cultures develop anyways? Later writers would read the works of earlier writers, adapt some of their views and ways of writing, etc etc. Especially in the later years with the internet, and before that with efficient postal systems and ease of gatherings, I would imagine a culture could form very quickly. Besides, most Esperantists would probably share a lot of viewpoints already, they're probably mostly left orientated, somewhat liberal and a fan of inter-cultural communication (duh).
I'd imagine a Chinese author, for instance, would write within the Esperanto culture and norms, but to a degree perhaps very influenced by his Chinese background. Sounds very interesting to me! Edit:
I think the point is rather that you can easily communicate across language barriers, which gives you access to different cultures, but that doesn't imply it can't or won't form a culture of it's own. Edited by mrhenrik on 24 July 2010 at 3:05pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6280 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 61 of 72 24 July 2010 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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Both.
Some Esperanto literature is heavily influenced by the author's upbringing and his national culture. This allows some interesting insights into say Japanese or Russian culture, because not so many Japanese or Russian authors write works originally in English. Also, a lot of good authors, even must-know authors, are never translated to English. For German, Karl May and Wolfgang Hohlbein immediately come to my mind. Karl May's Westerns had and have a gigantic influence on the German perception of Native Americans, and Wolfgang Hohlbein is the most popular German fantasy writer. Yet, you will search in vain for English translations of these (except for two short novels from a turn-of-the-century "translator" who re-wrote Karl May changing everything about it) because there are already enough English speakers writing Westerns or Fantasy novels. In Esperanto, you can discover these kinds of writers that are really famous in their country and unknown outside. Plus, the Esperanto translations lose less of the nuances and the beauty of the original, as they are done by native speakers of the source language and into a language that offers great freedom of expression. On the other hand, there are also many works in Esperanto literature that don't really reflect the author's national culture but rather Esperanto culture. They may reference or parody other works, types of people in the movement, or traditions that have evolved over the years among Esperanto speakers. They may also have been influenced by other Esperanto authors, by a certain school of writing in Esperanto literature, or by an Esperanto way of life. With the last I mean things like coming from one country, living in another and being married to someone from a third. Visiting a different country each summer, spending every New Year's Eve partying in Germany, being close friends with people in more than a dozen countries (whom you see twice a year or so) and not raising an eyebrow if someone proclaims that he's vegan, working on a Linux kernel or able to speak 6 or more languages. If you spend any amount of time in Esperantujo, it's going to shape how you view the world. The flip side of the coin is the after-meeting blues. Having lived among a diverse, truly international group of people that are sometimes quite geeky, and open-minded about a lot of things, it's not easy to go back to your small town where people look at you funny for wanting to learn Chinese or Arabic, never mind Swahili. Plus you want to maximize the amount of time you spend with your friends from around the world, so you spend a lot of time partying and very little time sleeping while at the event (typically week-long), which weakens the immune system. Quite a few people come back with a minor illness in addition to the boredom and blues of being back home. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Romanist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5092 days ago 261 posts - 366 votes Studies: Italian | Message 62 of 72 24 July 2010 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Okay, I can kind of see what you mean here. (Although it still seems a little bit nebulous, to be quite honest...) BTW It is maybe better to avoid talking about "people in the movement"? This word can have some political overtones, and it may therefore give outsiders the wrong impression? Edited by Romanist on 24 July 2010 at 11:24pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5130 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 63 of 72 24 July 2010 at 11:53pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
I'm sorry, but this description sounds very elitist. I understand where you're coming from, but you're indirectly saying that it takes an Esperantist to be especially open. However, I know many people who have absolutely no interest in foreign languages but are nevertheless very open-minded and I met polyglots who were extremely boring and narrow-minded. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| guesto Groupie Australia Joined 5551 days ago 76 posts - 118 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 64 of 72 25 July 2010 at 2:13am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Except unless your native language is Esperanto you're going to have some trouble understanding those nuances. Besides, I remember reading once that Esperanto doesn't really have fixed nuances, for example, that a non-standard sentence structure can mean something different for two people. And for native speakers of different languages some words will have different connotations, hence, how to know which word to choose in doing the translation? You'd need different versions of translation for people with different native languages in the same way you have translations to Castillian, Mexican, Argentine... with the added problem that these different perceptions are quite vague, changeable and undocumented. On the other hand, nuances in natural languages are fixed. Hence, I'd rather read a translation in my native language because my mastery of it makes up for any supposed lack of freedom of expression.
This is one of the reasons I'm not very fond of Esperanto. They are obsessed with their own intellectual superiority and their "open-mindedness".
This "Esperanto way of life" sounds basically the same as the way of life many young people I know, especially Europeans, lead while communicating in English... Another thing I dislike about Esperanto is their unrealistic ideology based on false premises. They proclaim that everyone being able to communicate with everyone will lead to global peace. Since when? If that were true then how is it that there is such thing as a civil war? Even if Esperanto does go global, expect to see Esperanto speakers fighting other Esperanto speakers. Sorry if it sounds pessimistic, but that's what this thread is about, isn't it? Edited by guesto on 25 July 2010 at 2:33am 9 persons have voted this message useful |
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