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Does Latin make you clever? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| krog Diglot Senior Member Austria Joined 5849 days ago 146 posts - 152 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Latin | Message 33 of 42 21 February 2009 at 10:42am | IP Logged | ||
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I'm feeling some slight hostility toward Latin on this thread. 'Does Latin make you clever?' is not a rhetorical question. Imagine it's a slightly misleading headline on page 9 of a middlebrow newspaper (eg The Independent). Just because people like Boris Johnson have drunk from the well of Latin, doesn't mean that the well is tainted. If some people try to big themselves up using Latin, that's because they're jerks. Latin is just an innocent victim.
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| krog Diglot Senior Member Austria Joined 5849 days ago 146 posts - 152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Latin | Message 34 of 42 21 February 2009 at 10:57am | IP Logged | ||
Thank you for this interesting response full of information I did not know. What other surprises does Shakespeare have up his sleeve? In Kentwell Hall in Suffolk there is an annual Tudor fair, with scores of 'extras' playing the roles of servants, milkmaids etc. They all have to learn how to talk Tudor to visiting schoolchildren eg 'how now?' instead of 'alright?'. Maybe the time has come for someone to create a language course for Shakespearean English? Have I discovered my life's work? Assimil Shakespearean English With Ease. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6072 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 35 of 42 21 February 2009 at 11:00am | IP Logged | ||
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My own education very much featured modern languages. I was once asked if I had studied Latin, based on the way I speak English, but no, I hadn't.
I went to the end of Beginner's Latin from the Teach Yourself series but my knowledge is no more than advanced beginner's level. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| jbbar Senior Member Belgium Joined 5600 days ago 192 posts - 210 votes Speaks: English | Message 36 of 42 21 February 2009 at 11:50am | IP Logged | ||
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I just want to clarify what I wrote earlier because I was pretty sarcastic and harsh in what I wrote. Make no mistake about it - I actually think Latin in itself is an interesting and important language. Same goes for Greek. If I had more time on my hands right now I'd probably be learning one of them. So the problem isn't really these languages in themselves. I personally just can't stand those kids who think they're really something because they happen to have studied Latin and/or Greek in secondary school. There are enough intelligent people out there who've never studied any classical language who are doing just fine and I dare say contribute more to society. Does that mean these languages are useless? That all who have learned or are learning these languages are jerks? Not at all! I think these languages should receive more attention. They shouldn't be reserved for some snobby elite, a group of people that often ends up being the very ones who don't appreciate their own background and civilization. Latin and Greek are considered to be so difficult they can only be studied by the brightest students and yet there are some out there who do not study Latin or Greek in school but have to tackle up to four different modern languages at the same time, which means that not only they have to study grammar and vocabulary, they also need to learn to speak and understand these languages flawlessly and apply them in business situations (unlike Latin which is a dead language).In any case that's the situation in my country. I believe Western civilization needs to be more appreciated again. I think allowing more students to familiarize themselves with the classical languages would be a step in the right direction. Edited by jbbar on 21 February 2009 at 11:52am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Goindol Senior Member United States Joined 5874 days ago 165 posts - 203 votes | Message 37 of 42 21 February 2009 at 7:49pm | IP Logged | ||
When Boris Johnson was running for mayor, Daddy chimed to the reporters with "If the boy can do Latin and Greek, he can run a city like London." I couldn't stop laughing for five minutes. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Emilia Newbie Italy Joined 5940 days ago 26 posts - 27 votes Speaks: Italian* | Message 38 of 42 22 February 2009 at 2:39am | IP Logged | ||
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Latin doesn't "make you clever" any more than any other foreign language - there's nothing inherent in its nature, as a language, which would make it intellectually superior to other languages. It's only the history, and the fact that it was the language of the educated for centuries, that made it a sign of an excellent education and glorified it. There's nothing in Latin which will give you some "cognitive effect" which French, German or Arabic won't. It's the matter of label, nothing more.
Having said that, I have undergone classical education myself, both in primary and secondary school. I didn't consider it anything special, classics were just normal part of curriculum, as Chemistry, French or Philosophy were. There wasn't any "special aura" at school because it was labelled a classical school. There wasn't snobbery. Nobody thought high of themselves because we were translating Cicero and reciting Homer. Knowledge oscillated, there were people who were really well-versed in classics and had reading fluency, and there were those who were barely passing them and failing years because of them, as in any subject. Up until I had more contact with foreigners, especially Americans, I never considered the fact I was taught classics as something "special" and it always made me laugh how some people automatically thought I was smarter just because I (had) studied Latin and Greek. Now, looking back, there was something special about it. Education which involves classics over the period of years IS a more "complete" education in my cultural circle - there is no doubt about that. It does give more profound understanding of our language (Latin), and our and European culture in general. It does help with general language studies to be exposed to structures so old and be able to see how they evolved. It does help in religious aspect too, if somebody is interested in that. It does "refine" your humanities (or law) studies in general. It IS culturally important in some cases, at least Latin. But, it DOESN'T make you smart per se, it DOESN'T make you "well-educated" per se (it takes an entire structure, not just one of its elements, to make you well-educated... and the quality of many classical schools is in non-classical studies as well), it DOESN'T rewire your brain in a way that studying any other foreign language wouldn't. Utile? Not at all, anything you'd wish to read is translated anyway, and those usually aren't (apart from NT, if you're religious) kinds of works that are that dependent on their originals, I mean, they don't lose much. Baudelaire loses more in translation than Homer, from the perspective of our time; and what's the point of reading, I don't know, Cicero's "In Catilinam" in original? Not that most of my ex-colleagues from school remember anything past first two paragraphs in Latin (which we had to memorize), they 'remember' it through their native language, of course. Studying modern languages is more useful. And easier, due to more possibilities of exposure to them. And more complete, as you learn to express yourself effectively in them, instead of just consuming them passively, as we did with classics (I know that in theory you can express yourself in Latin too, with all the new-coined vocabulary needed for typically modern expressions, but it's sort of artificial and almost a conlang - I don't like it). Modern languages, if anything, are superior in today's context. I laugh at the idea that Latin or Greek are "only for the brightest students" (no such misconception here, as classics studies are more widespread and not reserved for elite private schools). They're difficult languages, but the most difficult part is the fact you're taught them passively, and not actively, i.e. the method of teaching "dead" languages is different, and there aren't many students who work better with ex-cathedra, memorization, metrics schemes, exact translation rules and grammar-approach than with modern language study methods, as discussed on this site. And that's the whole thing, simply very small percentage of students have both interest and are suited for such approach. If Latin were a living language, it would be mastered with no greater difficulties than Croatian (as an example of morphologically similar language). To summarize, there's no reason to learn Latin beyond being interested in Latin or needing it for scholarly reasons (people who deal with Roman history, etc). Don't be deceived, Latin isn't "special" any more than any other language is, unless in the context of classical education (but that's already offtopic). Edited by Emilia on 22 February 2009 at 2:43am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| jbbar Senior Member Belgium Joined 5600 days ago 192 posts - 210 votes Speaks: English | Message 39 of 42 23 February 2009 at 4:24am | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for your post Emilia. I largely agree with you and I'm glad to hear that the situation apparently is different in Italy. Perhaps in part this is due to Italy being far more exposed to Roman civilization and Italian being closer to Latin? Just a thought.
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| Sulpicius Diglot Groupie United States Joined 5827 days ago 89 posts - 91 votes Speaks: English*, Latin Studies: French, Arabic (Written) | Message 40 of 42 23 February 2009 at 6:25am | IP Logged | ||
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Latin and Greek are foundation languages that should be studied intently. Nearly ever major literary figure of the past of any merit has studied these languages and found them phenomenal. Milton, Machiavelli, Gibbon, and Aquinas are going to be hardly as enriching if you don't have a familiar background and grounding, or at least an understanding of classical languages or history. And yes, classical languages certainly advance critical thinking. If anyone would like to seriously debate if the case system is not a rewarding endeavour and more syntactially complex than French or Spanish (not to devalue these languages), then please, let us hear the argument. These languages require a foundation in grammar, and they make one dissect thoughts during the beginning phases and analyze syntax. They are unrivalled.
Classical Arabic is also very interesting with regards to case. I can only dream of Sankskrit, at least for now. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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