Register  Login  Active Topics  Maps  

Listening-Reading system

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
489 messages over 62 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 1 ... 61 62 Next >>
siomotteikiru
Senior Member
Zaire
Joined 3804 days ago

102 posts - 139 votes 

 
 Message 1 of 489
26 June 2007 at 4:43am | IP Logged 
WARNING
I AM AGAINST ANY COMMERCIAL USE OF ANYTHING BY MY HUMBLE SELF.







Why crawl if you can walk?

I’ve always been puzzled by the fact that even intelligent people learn languages in a clumsy way.



If you want to learn a language quickly you’ll need:
1. a recording performed by good actors or narrators in the language you want to learn
2. the original text (of the recording)
3. a translation into your own language or a language you understand
4. the text(s) should be long: novels are best

You may wonder: why long texts? Because of the idiolect of the author; it manifests itself fully in the first ten–twenty pages: it is very important in learning quickly without cramming.

The key factor in learning a language is EXPOSURE, that is how much NEW text you will be able to perceive in a unit of time. There is a physical limit here, you can’t understand any faster than the text reaches your brain. That is why you ought to SIMULTANEOUSLY read the translation and listen to the original recording: that provides the fastest exposure.
You should ENJOY the text you're going to listen to.
Texts for beginners should be long - the longer the better, up to fifty hours (e.g. The Lord of the Ring, Harry Potter, Anna Karenina, War and Peace, Catch-22).
You might doubt if it is possible. I can assure you it is - you should see twelve-year-olds listening to Harry Potter.

The translation:
a) interlinear (for beginners)
b) literary, but following the original text as closely as possible
The original text and the literary translation should be placed in parallel vertical columns side by side.
If the texts are placed side by side, you can check almost instantly whether you understand or not.

The order ought to be EXACTLY as follows:
What you do:
1. you read the translation
because you only remember well what you understand and what you feel is "yours" psychologically

2. you listen to the recording and look at the written text at the same time,
because the flow of speech has no boundaries between words and the written text does, you will be able to separate each word in the speech flow
and you will get used to the speed of talking of native speakers - at first it seems incredibly fast

3. you look at the translation and listen to the text at the same time, from the beginning to the end of a story, usually three times is enough to understand almost everything
This is the most important thing in the method, it is right AT THIS POINT that proper learning takes place.
If you’re in a position to do it right from the start, you can skip 1. and 2.

4. now you can concentrate on SPEAKING: you repeat after the recording, you do it as many times as necessary to become fluent
Of course, first you have to know how to pronounce the sounds of the language you’re learning. How to teach yourself the correct pronunciation is a different matter, here I will only mention the importance of it.

5. you translate the text from your own language into the language you’re learning
you can do the translation both orally and in writing, that’s why the written texts should be placed in vertical columns side by side: you can cover one side and check using the other one.

And last but not least: conversing is not learning, it is USING a language, you will NEVER be able to say more than you already know.
© Phi-Staszek



And here's the same text in Russian:

Зачем ползти, если можно ходить?
Меня всегда ставила в тупик нелепая манера, в которой даже образованные люди изучают языки.


Вот как это делается:


Если Вы хотите быстро выучить язык, Вам понадобятся:
1. запись, сделанная при участии хороших актеров или дикторов на языке, который Вы хотите выучить
2. оригинальный текст, с которого сделана запись
3. перевод этого текста на Ваш родной язык или другой язык, который Вы понимаете
4. текст должен быть длинным, лучше всего роман.

Может возникнуть вопрос: почему именно длинный текст? Потому что идиолект автора, который полностью проявляется в первых 10-20 страницах, очень важен для быстрого изучения языка без зубрежки.

Ключевым фактором при изучении языка является ЭКСПОЗИЦИЯ, т.е. количество текста, которое Вы можете воспринять за единицу времени. Тут есть определенные физические рамки: понимание происходит не быстрее, чем текст достигает мозга. Вот почему следует читать перевод и слушать запись оригинала ОДНОВРЕМЕННО, в этом случае экспозиция происходит быстрее всего.
Текст, который Вы слушаете, должен доставлять Вам УДОВОЛЬСТВИЕ.
Тексты для начинающих должны быть длинными, чем длиннее, тем лучше – до пятидесяти часов звучания (например, «Властелин Колец», «Гарри Поттер», «Анна Каренина», «Война и мир», «Catch-22»).
Уверяю Вас, это возможно, достаточно взглянуть на двенадцатилетних детей, слушающих «Гарри Поттера».
Перевод:
a) подстрочный (для начинающих)
б) литературный, но точный настолько, насколько это возможно.
Оригинальный текст и литературный перевод должны быть расположены параллельно в вертикальных колонках.
При таком расположении Вы можете сразу же проверить, все Вы понимаете или нет.
Необходимо СТОРОГО придерживаться следующего порядка действий:
Вы:
1. читаете перевод
так как запомнить Вы можете только то, что понимаете, что психологически «принадлежит» Вам.

2. слушаете запись и одновременно читаете написанный текст,
потому что в потоке речи нет разграничений между словами, а на письме они есть, и Вы будете в состоянии отделить одно слово от другого в речевом потоке.
А кроме того, Вы привыкнете к скорости речи носителей языка, сначала кажется, что говорят они невероятно быстро.

3. глядя в перевод, слушаете текст от начала до конца (истории), обычно трех раз достаточно для почти полного понимания.
Это самая важная часть нашего метода, так как именно на этом этапе происходит собственно обучение.

4. теперь можно сосредоточиться на говорении: Вы слушаете запись и повторяете, столько раз, сколько необходимо для достижения беглости речи.
Конечно, перед тем, как говорить, Вы должны знать, как произносятся звуки изучаемого языка. Как научиться правильному произношению – вопрос отдельный, здесь я только подчеркну его важность.

5. наконец, Вы переводите текст с родного языка на тот, который учите
перевод можно делать как устно так и письменно, вот почему тексты нужно располагать параллельно в вертикальных колонках – Вы можете закрыть одну сторону, и проверять перевод, используя другую.

И последнее, но не менее важное: говоря, беседуя Вы не учите, а ИСПОЛЬЗУЕТЕ язык, Вы никогда не сможете сказать больше, чем уже знаете.

© Phi-Staszek



To put it in a nutshell:
Learning a language is all about EXPOSURE, that is how much NEW text you're able to understand in a unit of time (a minute multiplied by hours and days).
When you start at the beginner's level your exposure is almost none.

It does NOT matter whether you understand each single word, in the beginning concentrate on sentences. The more of them you will hear and see at the same time, the more exposure you will get. Let your brain do the rest.

The layout of the texts to learn is very important.
Sensory memories - visulal (iconic) and auditory (echoic)- are very short and disappear within a second, so you get lost when you have to look for words, they should CONSTANTLY be within your eyes’ and ears’ reach.

If you want to maximize your EXPOSURE:
Use meaningful texts (not words, short sentences).
Use LONG texts with AUDIO.
By texts I mean TEXTS (a story, a joke, a newspaper article, a poem, a novel), not individual words or sentences or boring textbooks dialogues about nothing.

Don't try to speak (or write) too soon, it is much better to listen to more texts instead, listening comprehention should be the most important goal.
I concentrate on the meaning, I do not try to learn a paticular language, what I am interested in is the story, not the language.
And don't do any tests, it is a complete waste of time and a source of appalling number of mistakes. Tests are good for teachers and publishers, not for learners.

Sooner or later you will feel you're ready to speak or write, it will come naturally, and it will be easy.
I’ve NEVER learned how to write English, and I am able to put across almost anything I want, (making hell of a lot of mistakes, but who cares as long as the meaning is clear). You may not believe it, but I haven’t written anything in English for three years, and still I can manage.

ONE thing at a time.
Remember "The Last Samurai": "Too many minds: mind the sword, mind the people watch. No mind."

PS
As to my English. I'm not a native speaker. I am aware I might sometimes sound too aprupt or patronizing. If so, please forgive me, it was not my intention.

Be happy, go lucky.
Miss Hopper



And now you can see:
something big above your head:
天。



I posted it somewhere else a few years ago.
I am not a teacher nor a publisher, I am a LEARNER.
Teachers and publishers usually (always?) want to make money (nothing wrong with that), LEARNERS want to learn as well and as fast as possible. And that's why our needs are completely different.








Edited by siomotteikiru on 31 July 2007 at 1:56pm

77 persons have voted this message useful





jeff_lindqvist
Diglot
Moderator
SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 4352 days ago

4251 posts - 1616 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*, English
Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 2 of 489
26 June 2007 at 4:51am | IP Logged 
Interesting points.

siomotteikiru wrote:
As to my English. I'm not a native speaker.


I couldn't help noticing that Engish (and all other languages) are listed in your profile as native languages. You may want to change that. :)
1 person has voted this message useful



Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
Joined 3882 days ago

4475 posts - 2384 votes 
Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian
Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese

 
 Message 3 of 489
26 June 2007 at 8:20am | IP Logged 
Perhaps these are too close to a boring textbook - but this is -extremely- similar to Assimil (and, I think, Linguaphone). The differences are in the lexicon, and in having 'graded' input.

That said - I've tried reading parallel texts, and unless they're using extremely ornate and formal language, I find it extremely useful. I haven't tried mixing in the audio component, as I've never liked audio books - but I think it's worth a try. Thank you very much, siomotteikiru!

1 person has voted this message useful



leosmith
Senior Member
United States
Joined 3993 days ago

2364 posts - 1491 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Korean

 
 Message 4 of 489
26 June 2007 at 9:59am | IP Logged 
This is a very helpful post. So I have some comments and questions, and I hope they will not bother you too much.

First, please be aware that similar methods are available commercially. Not exactly the same, but similar. They work very well for some, but not for all. Now for your post:

siomotteikiru wrote:

The translation:
a) interlinear (for beginners)
b) literary, but following the original text as closely as possible
The original text and the literary translation should be placed in parallel vertical columns side by side.
If the texts are placed side by side, you can check almost instantly whether you understand or not.

Do you know where one can find such texts? Any links would be appreciated

siomotteikiru wrote:

The order ought to be EXACTLY as follows:
What you do:
1. you read the translation
because you only remember well what you understand and what you feel is "yours" psychologically

2. you listen to the recording and look at the written text at the same time,
because the flow of speech has no boundaries between words and the written text does, you will be able to separate each word in the speech flow
and you will get used to the speed of talking of native speakers - at first it seems incredibly fast

3. you look at the translation and listen to the text at the same time, from the beginning to the end of a story, usually three times is enough to understand almost everything
This is the most important thing in the method, it is right AT THIS POINT that proper learning takes place.
If you’re in a position to do it right from the start, you can skip 1. and 2.

4. now you can concentrate on SPEAKING: you repeat after the recording, you do it as many times as necessary to become fluent
Of course, first you have to know how to pronounce the sounds of the language you’re learning. How to teach yourself the correct pronunciation is a different matter, here I will only mention the importance of it.

5. you translate the text from your own language into the language you’re learning
you can do the translation both orally and in writing, that’s why the written texts should be placed in vertical columns side by side: you can cover one side and check using the other one.

Are you saying to do each step with the whole text? By that I mean
1. read the translation for the whole book
2. listen to the recording and look at the written text at the same time for the whole book
etc.
or do you advocate doing a page at a time, or some other increment.

siomotteikiru wrote:

And last but not least: conversing is not learning, it is USING a language, you will NEVER be able to say more than you already know.

It takes a lot of practice to get good at conversing. It's a necessary part of aquiring a language. Invariably you will pick up new words and grammar while listening to your partner. Based on these things, I consider it learning.

siomotteikiru wrote:

© Phi-Staszek

Is this the original writer of the blog? If so, do you have a link?

siomotteikiru wrote:

To put it in a nutshell:
Learning a language is all about EXPOSURE


From
Language Learning in the Real World for Non-beginners,
Quote:
In my own experience, Krashen's input hypothesis has been enormously helpful. Yet it appears that few scholars agree with the hypothesis in its entirety. That is because Krashen doesn't just claim that comprehensible input is the most important factor in second language acquisition. He claims that it is the only factor!

Although I agree that exposure is very important, perhaps the single most important factor.

siomotteikiru wrote:

It does NOT matter whether you understand each single word, in the beginning concentrate on sentences. The more of them you will hear and see at the same time, the more exposure you will get. Let your brain do the rest.

True, and to take it a step further, learning whole paragraphs is better with languages that are highly dependant on context, like Japanese.

siomotteikiru wrote:

Don't try to speak (or write) too soon

Don't wait too long though. You might be interested in this thread
only listen

siomotteikiru wrote:

And don't do any tests, it is a complete waste of time

If it motivates you, why not?
4 persons have voted this message useful



siomotteikiru
Senior Member
Zaire
Joined 3804 days ago

102 posts - 139 votes 

 
 Message 5 of 489
26 June 2007 at 11:53am | IP Logged 
I am the author of these notes, siomotteikiru and Phi-Staszek are the same person.


Texts:
1. ideal:
(not just any texts) written by educated native speakers for educated native speakers (good writers, scholars, journalists) read aloud by professional actors
2. self-explanotary:
the more you BEFOREHAND know about the text you’re going to study the better.
„Der Prozess” by Franz Kafka or „Lolita” by Nabokov for me, I’ve time and again read and LISTENED to them in many languages, so I almost know them by heart.
3. "extra-linguistic":
you should concentrate on the plot not grammar points or vocabulary
4. „tool kit”:
e-texts in vertical parallel columns, good translation, good audio recording (mp3, wav), pop up dictionary
5. JOY or/and wonder

The first ten to twenty pages (idiolect) might be extremely difficult, but if you don’t give up too soon because you’re scared or frustrated it will become easier and easier, the longer the book the easier it will be to understand.


I’ve got hundreds of electronic parallel novels (made them for myself): English-Polish, English-Russian, Russian-Polish, Italian-Polish, German-Polish, Spanish-Polish, etc.
Carroll, Dostoyevksy, Tolstoy, Kafka, Graham Green, Cela, Heller, Lampedusa, Eco, Bulgakov etc.
All unabridged, recorded in English, Russian, German, French, Sapanish, Italian, etc.

I am currently working on Japanese parallel texts (for myself, Japanese-Polish).

If you happen to know Polish, pm me or e-mail me, I will send you more information, FREE OF CHARGE, I am not a commercially-oriented person.

PS
I do not remember Krashen mentioning anywhere how to MEASURE EXPOSURE:
NEW TEXT (written + audio) divided by
minutes times hours times days

SPEAKING and WRITING are not difficult at all, provided you have done the right amount of exposure to good quality texts (written + audio).
Most native speakers in any language have usually nothing interesting or beautiful to say, because of poor exposure (they do not listen to or read anything really worth it).


9 persons have voted this message useful



sheetz
Senior Member
United States
Joined 3820 days ago

270 posts - 82 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Japanese, French, Mandarin

 
 Message 6 of 489
26 June 2007 at 12:04pm | IP Logged 
This sounds like a great concept, but I'm curious where you are able to find the audios for the novels in your target languages. Do you find native speakers to do them for you?



Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
Joined 3882 days ago

4475 posts - 2384 votes 
Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian
Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese

 
 Message 7 of 489
26 June 2007 at 12:46pm | IP Logged 
Would you be so kind as to explain, in more detail, how you make these parallel texts?

Could you recommend any good texts and audio in Polish, which I could make a parallel text with English in, to pick up the basics of Polish?



siomotteikiru
Senior Member
Zaire
Joined 3804 days ago

102 posts - 139 votes 

 
 Message 8 of 489
26 June 2007 at 12:46pm | IP Logged 
Audiobooks for major languages are easily available, use p2p or Internet shops. Libraries for visually disabled people are a great scource, too.

I've been collecting audiobooks for years, so I have thousands of them in many languages.



This discussion contains 489 messages over 62 pages: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62  Next >>


Post ReplyPost New Topic Printable version Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page was generated in 0.3438 seconds.


DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
Copyright 2017 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved
No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization.