Learning preterite forms in German (Specific Languages) Language Learning Forum

Learning preterite forms in German
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14 messages over 2 pages: 1 2

stelingo
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Message 9 of 14

08 August 2015 at 4:10pm | IP Logged

chaotic_thought wrote:

When speaking English I always find it
interesting that we tend to say "I (already) ate" rather than "I've
(already) eaten.", whereas in German we tend to say "Ich habe (schon)
gegessen", rather than "Ich aß (schon)".

In British English we say 'I have already eaten'. Using the simple past
with already is a feature of American English.
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stelingo
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Message 10 of 14

08 August 2015 at 4:17pm | IP Logged

LanguagePhysics wrote:

The bottom line is that most, if not all, High German dialects do not
have any concept of the preterite natively. The use of the preterite in
Standard German has obviously originated from somewhere else, probably
from its use in Northern Germany as it was primarily learnt as a second
language and therefore eventually regarded as more correct because
Northern Germans paid more attention to the specific rules when learning
it.

The bottom line, and to answer your original question, is that you need
to learn the preterite if you want to achieve some fluency in German. A
point that Josquin, a native speaker, has very ably explained
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Josquin
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Message 11 of 14

08 August 2015 at 4:31pm | IP Logged

As impressed as I am by your Wikipedia quotes, I can assure you that I am a native speaker of German, who has lived in Germany all of his life, so I might know a little bit more about my own language than you and your sources.

As I said, you’re correct insofar as the South German dialects have lost their preterite forms in the course of the centuries, so South Germans tend to use little to no preterite forms even in their High German. However, you’re wrong when you state the use of the preterite is restricted to Northern Germany.

First of all, I don’t even know if you understand what "Northern Germany" refers to in this context. It’s not just the coast region, it’s all of Germany north of the river Main or of Frankfurt. So, it’s not just a tiny region we are talking about, it’s the entire northern half of Germany.

Second of all, the preterite hasn’t been imported from Low German. As I said, you can read Martin Luther, who has coined modern High German with his translation of the Bible. You’re wrong if you assume Luther used some highly codified version of High German for his translation. Luther created Modern High German. He used German as it was spoken, as he even said he watched people’s mouths ("den Leuten aufs Maul schauen") in order to translate the Bible into a language they understand.

If you don’t believe this, you can go even further back in history and read Middle High German. There’s a famous poem a lot of children still learn in school today, which consists entirely of preterite forms:

Quote:

Ich zôch mir einen valken   mêre danne ein jâr.
dô ich in gezamete   als ich in wolte hân
und ich im sîn gevidere   mit golde wol bewant,
er huop sich ûf vil hôhe   und floug in anderiu lant.

Sît sach ich den valken   schône fliegen:
er fuorte an sînem fuoze   sîdîne riemen,
und was im sîn gevidere   alrôt guldîn.
got sende si zesamene   die gerne geliep wellen sîn!

If you think this was influenced by Low German, you're being absolutely ridiculous. So, your conclusion is entirely wrong. Standard High German hasn’t imported its preterite forms from Low German. Instead, the High German dialects have lost their preterite forms while the standardized language has preserved them. This may or may not have happened under the influence of Low German speakers, I don’t know. But your version of the story is still wrong.

To give you one more example: A lot of dialects don’t have all four cases of High German. Does that mean High German imported the additional cases from somewhere else, or does it mean the dialects have been simplified and lost them? You state yourself High German was mainly a written language, so it used to be rather conservative in comparison to the dialects, which lost a lot of features earlier stages of German used to have.

But aside from the fact that High German didn't import the preterite from Low German, I still need to convince you that even South Germans use the preterite. The situation you describe is the traditional situation as it used to be when people still spoke nothing but dialect at home. However, the dialects are in retreat and Standard German is used more and more in everyday situations.

This means that the preterite is used more and more in southern regions of Germany as well. This is something you can't know from books, this is something you know when you live in the country. I have lived in Northern and in Southern Germany and I know the way Germans talk.

EDIT: As you seem to love Wikipedia, you might want to read these articles: Präteritum, Oberdeutscher Präteritumschwund.

Edited by Josquin on 08 August 2015 at 5:17pm
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Camundonguinho
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Message 12 of 14

11 August 2015 at 2:51am | IP Logged

In Austrian German standard, the preterite sounds bookish / literary
that's why even in newspapers, many journalists may prefer to use the perfect
(even in situations a journalist from Germany would use the preterit).

Make sure you learn preterite of haben, sein and modal verbs
but don't be surprised to hear ''Bist du je gewesen?'' as well.

Northern German grammar imposed a difference between the two tenses:

Es regnete. (It rained, the road is no longer wet)
Es hat geregnet. (It's been raining, the road is still wet)

but this opposition is not observed from Frankfurt southwards,
both tenses are used interchangeably> preterit for haben and sein and modals,
perfect for all other verbs. In Austria, the perfect of haben, sein and modals is very much in oral use as well .

Edited by Camundonguinho on 11 August 2015 at 2:59am
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aokoye
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Message 13 of 14

11 August 2015 at 4:20am | IP Logged

Josquin wrote:

As impressed as I am by your Wikipedia quotes, I can assure you that I am a
native speaker of German, who has lived in Germany all of his life, so I might know a little bit more
about my own language than you and your sources.

As I said, you’re correct insofar as the South German dialects have lost their preterite forms in the
course of the centuries, so South Germans tend to use little to no preterite forms even in their High
German. However, you’re wrong when you state the use of the preterite is restricted to Northern
Germany.

First of all, I don’t even know if you understand what "Northern Germany" refers to in this context. It’s
not just the coast region, it’s all of Germany north of the river Main or of Frankfurt. So, it’s not just a
tiny region we are talking about, it’s the entire northern half of Germany.

Second of all, the preterite hasn’t been imported from Low German. As I said, you can read Martin
Luther, who has coined modern High German with his translation of the Bible. You’re wrong if you
assume Luther used some highly codified version of High German for his translation. Luther
created Modern High German. He used German as it was spoken, as he even said he watched
people’s mouths ("den Leuten aufs Maul schauen") in order to translate the Bible into a language they
understand.

If you don’t believe this, you can go even further back in history and read Middle High German.
There’s a famous poem a lot of children still learn in school today, which consists entirely of preterite
forms:

Quote:

If you think this was influenced by Low German, you're being absolutely ridiculous. So, your
conclusion is entirely wrong. Standard High German hasn’t imported its preterite forms from Low
German. Instead, the High German dialects have lost their preterite forms while the standardized
language has preserved them. This may or may not have happened under the influence of Low
German speakers, I don’t know. But your version of the story is still wrong.

To give you one more example: A lot of dialects don’t have all four cases of High German. Does that
mean High German imported the additional cases from somewhere else, or does it mean the dialects
have been simplified and lost them? You state yourself High German was mainly a written language,
so it used to be rather conservative in comparison to the dialects, which lost a lot of features earlier
stages of German used to have.

But aside from the fact that High German didn't import the preterite from Low German, I still need to
convince you that even South Germans use the preterite. The situation you describe is the traditional
situation as it used to be when people still spoke nothing but dialect at home. However, the dialects
are in retreat and Standard German is used more and more in everyday situations.

This means that the preterite is used more and more in southern regions of Germany as well. This is
something you can't know from books, this is something you know when you live in the country. I
have lived in Northern and in Southern Germany and I know the way Germans talk.

EDIT: As you seem to love Wikipedia, you might want to read these articles:
Präteritum,
Oberdeutscher
Präteritumschwund.

I love this post so much. I mean granted Wikipedia does "know" some things about English that I
don't, however let's not pretend that language is always or mostly spoken or written in a prescriptivist
manner like some people might think it is or should be.
3 persons have voted this message useful

camenzind
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Studies: Spanish, Dutch

Message 14 of 14

12 September 2015 at 7:41pm | IP Logged

I studied the German language for five months in Cologne. The preterite was often used, especially when the people spoke about a past event; nevertheless, I would say the preterite is hardly used to write emails or short messages.

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