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L2 Potpurri: ENG, DEU, FRE, ESP, etc | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4735 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 1 of 7 01 October 2014 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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I didn't want to open a thread for each question, so here it goes.
Question 1 (Germanic languages) I am a native English speaker but I do not as of yet discern between the two following statements: If he wanted to have it... If he had wanted to have it... Now that I write them down, I do sense a difference (I think), but I am not sure how to describe it in written form, and it is still rather vague. I was tipped off of this pattern when I heard on TV what I think is the German version of it: "Wenn er es hätte haben wollen..." I would assume this is equal to "If he had wanted to have it..." And the other would be "Wenn er es gewollt hätte..." I purposely left out the 2nd parts of the "if/wenn" clauses so that the focus is the temporal nature of these phrases. I would be interested in the insight of native English and German speakers anent the nuances of these phrases, and when would one be used over the other. - - - - - Question 2 (Latin languages) In Spanish, there is a construction with the verb "escaparse" (reflexive). Lets say a criminal has escaped FROM police custody. Assuming that it is understood by context that we are talking about a criminal and the police, I could say the following: Se les escapó. I know that in this statement "les" is an object that replaces "the police", and that "se" is the reflexive 3rd person of the criminal who escaped. (EL se escapó, with the pronun"el" being dropped from the sentence). How would I construct this phrase in French, not perhaps the exact same construction but the same meaning, with "s'échapper"? Il leur s'est échappé. I have never written this before, and looking at my notes I wrote down that a reflexive pronoun precedes an object pronoun. So if I followed that rule, that order would be incorrect. I want to know if such a sentence is even grammatical (it does not sound so to me), and if NOT, how would the Spanish phrase be rendered in French without compromising meaning. I can't as far as I can tell build an English sentece like that since "to escape" is not reflexive. ("He escaped the police / He escaped them") ------- My last question (which could apply also to the German) is how do you really say "to chip" in French/German. By "chip" I mean this kind of chip: A pebble just chipped a bit of paint from my car. My friend hit her hand full of rings on the glass table and chipped it. In other words, "to chip" as in dislodging or taking out a little bit of paint/glass/cement from a surface. EDIT: Heck, since I'm at it, how do Spanish speakers say this?? Thank you everyone! Edited by outcast on 01 October 2014 at 4:58pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Gemuse Senior Member Germany Joined 3868 days ago 818 posts - 1189 votes Speaks: English Studies: German | Message 2 of 7 01 October 2014 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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Not a native speaker, but still I'll take a stab at Q1.
1. If he wanted to have it... Connotation: he most likely did want to have it. » If he wanted to have it, he should have said something. 2. If he had wanted to have it... Connotation: not sure if he wanted to have it. » If he had wanted to have it, he would have said something. Since we know he did not say anything, he must not have wanted it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5385 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes | Message 3 of 7 02 October 2014 at 12:08am | IP Logged | ||
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"If he wanted to have it" is not obligatory subjuncive in German. I would have said "Wenn er es haben wollte", which fits better the connotation "he most likely did want to have it" than the translation " "Wenn er es gewollt hätte..."
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| nicozerpa Triglot Senior Member Argentina Joined 4112 days ago 182 posts - 315 votes Speaks: Spanish*, Portuguese, English Studies: Italian, German | Message 4 of 7 02 October 2014 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | ||
I'm not native either, but I can explain the difference: "If he wanted to have it" uses the "second conditional". It describes an hypothetical situation that is unlikely to happen but, if that situation were real, it would be happening in the present. "If he had wanted to have it" uses the "third conditional": an hypothetical situation in the past. Generally, it's used then that situation was possible (or relevant) in the past, but not in the present. I'll give you two examples: "If you wanted to go to Brazil, I'd buy the tickets". The other person doesn't want to go to Brazil. Probably he/she won't change his/her mind. But if he/she actually decides to go to Brazil, the speaker is able to buy the tickets. "If Paul had worn the seatbelt, he wouldn't have been injured". We are talking about a man who was injured after having a car accident because he wasn't wearing the seatbelt. In the past, he was able to buckle up, and the speaker describes that hypothetical situation. If doesn't matter if the fastens the seatbelt now, as he already had the accident. I know that you have a few questions about Spanish, but I'm running out of time :P I'll try to answer these later. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| chokofingrz Pentaglot Senior Member England Joined 4975 days ago 241 posts - 430 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Japanese, Catalan, Luxembourgish | Message 5 of 7 03 October 2014 at 3:39am | IP Logged | ||
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Il leur a échappé.
S'échapper does not need to be used reflexively; it has both forms, but il s'est échappé works as a standalone form whereas il a échappé (de qui/quoi?) tends to take an indirect object. I think all of these are valid: Il s'est échappé. Il s'est échappé de leurs mains.* Il a échappé à eux.* Il leur a échappé. * Side note: de is used for places or situations, and à for people. The moment you decide to place the indirect object pronoun leur before the verb, it is no longer possible to use the reflexive form. Ideally you need to know that both forms of the verb exist and spot when an intervening pronoun makes one form invalid. (Il leur s'est just sounds all clunky...) Hopefully someone can tell me if I am being imprecise or plain wrong! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4735 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 6 of 7 03 October 2014 at 2:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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Interesting about the indirect object nullifying the reflexive. Is this standard in the language? Because as I mentioned I rarely have encountered the use of both object pronouns and reflexive in the same environment, so much I have real trouble placing the order right. Hopefully other well-versed French speakers could expound on this a little more.
Also I would like to know if verbs change from pronominal to non-pronominal with object pronouns, does it at all affect meaning.
So let me ask you, would you ever see as a speaker the need to use the constructions put forth above? Do you see yourself saying the first 'hätte haben wollen'? Or is that just a slightly stilted "for TV" style that most speakers would not use normally? Even if not, what do you sense is the temporal difference between the two? I would still like to understand it, if any. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| trance0 Pentaglot Groupie Slovenia Joined 5536 days ago 52 posts - 78 votes Speaks: Slovenian*, English, German, Croatian, Serbian | Message 7 of 7 12 December 2015 at 3:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think you are mixing up two things here:
'Wenn er es hätte haben wollen...' = 'Wenn er es gewollt hätte...' = 'If he had wanted (to have) it...' It`s similar to: 'Ich wollte essen.' = 'Ich habe essen wollen.' But the meaning of both sentences in modern German is practically the same. Therefore: 'If he wanted to have it...' = 'Wenn er es haben wollte...' = 'Wenn er es würde haben wollen...' ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------- There are three possible 'if clauses' in English: 1. Type I (real conditional – future conditions that are real) If it rains, I will stay at home. (It might rain.) 2. Type II (unreal conditional – present or future conditions that are unreal) If it rained, I would be very angry. (It isn`t raining, so I am not angry.) 3. Type III (unreal conditional – past condition that is unreal – it did not take place.) If it had rained, I would have stayed at home. (It didn`t rain, so I didn`t stay at home.) In German it is very similar: 1. Type I Wenn es regnet, bleibe ich zu Hause. (Es mag regnen.) 2. Type II Wenn es regnen würde, würde ich ärgerlich sein. / Wenn es regnete, wäre ich ärgerlich. (Es regnet nicht, deshalb bin ich auch nicht ärgerlich.) 3. Type III Wenn es geregnet hätte, wäre ich zu Hause geblieben. (Es hat nicht geregnet, darum bin ich auch nicht zu Hause geblieben.) In type one both verbs are in the present indicative. In type two both verbs are either in the subjunctive II or are expressed by 'würden + present infinitive'. In type three both verbs are in the subjunctive II for situations in the past. Edited by trance0 on 13 December 2015 at 10:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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