Bow wave (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Bow wave
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montmorency
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Message 17 of 25

27 July 2014 at 12:16am | IP Logged

leosmith wrote:

cpnlsn88 wrote:

I think the concept of 'maintenance' is under studied/talked about

I agree. That's why I wrote this

This is a couple of months old now, but someone linked to this thread from another thead that I started, and I've been reading it,
and your posts on your own blog, with interest.

As a matter of interest, why don't you take one of your B2 languages, and work it up to C1 level? then you wouldn't have to maintain
it.

Or maybe you are already doing that.

How long do you think it would take you, just supposing you did intend to do this?
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leosmith
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Message 18 of 25

30 July 2014 at 7:59am | IP Logged

montmorency wrote:

As a matter of interest, why don't you take one of your B2 languages, and work it up to C1
level? then you wouldn't have to maintain it. Or maybe you are already doing that.How long do you think it would
take you, just supposing you did intend to do this?

I'm doing that. Actually, this "revelation" came about when I was already studying Russian, so I'm taking Russian all
the way to C1 (I'm somewhere around B2 now). How long would that take? Let me get back to you on that…:)
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montmorency
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Message 19 of 25

31 July 2014 at 1:07pm | IP Logged

leosmith wrote:

montmorency wrote:

As a matter of interest, why don't you take one of
your B2 languages, and work it up to C1
level? then you wouldn't have to maintain it. Or maybe you are already doing that.How
long do you think it would
take you, just supposing you did intend to do this?

I'm doing that. Actually, this "revelation" came about when I was already studying
Russian, so I'm taking Russian all
the way to C1 (I'm somewhere around B2 now). How long would that take? Let me get back to
you on that…:)

Aha, right. Good luck on your journey to C1 (or beyond)!
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Jeffers
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Message 20 of 25

11 August 2014 at 12:55am | IP Logged

montmorency wrote:

As a matter of interest, why don't you take one of your B2 languages, and work it up to C1 level? then you wouldn't have to maintain
it.

I'm a little surprised nobody questioned this assumption. How does C1 mean you don't have to maintain a language?
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leosmith
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Message 21 of 25

11 August 2014 at 5:51am | IP Logged

Jeffers wrote:

I'm a little surprised nobody questioned this assumption. How does C1 mean you don't have to
maintain a language?

That's been my experience. Feel free to read the post I linked to.
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s_allard
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Message 22 of 25

12 August 2014 at 2:24am | IP Logged

emk wrote:

...
So if I were going to hazard some wild guesses, and throw out some totally unsupported hypotheses, here's how
I'd try to rephrase your "bow wave" idea:

Intense study will eventually result in a large amount of unconsolidated knowledge that isn't yet "anchored" in
long-term memory. Eventually, the combination of unconsolidated knowledge, study burnout, and diminishing
returns will lead to increasing levels of frustration and stress. This, in turn, raises the affective filter and makes
further study inefficient and painful. But by taking a break, it's possible to give memories some time to
consolidate, and to recover from intense study.

Personally, I've never taken a complete break from French. But I have longish stretches where the bulk of my
activity is casual conversation, TV, and light reading. It's really no stress at all to sit down and read a bunch of
BDs on a tablet, or watch a few seasons of a TV show, or whatever. But the more I do this, the easier time I have
accessing my French. Of course, I couldn't get away from French in any case: My wife speaks it at home, and I
speak it with her.

Anyway, thank you very much for sharing these observations. It's very interesting stuff.

I think emk's interpretation of leosmith's Bow Wave Theory is pretty accurate. The fundamental idea, as I
understand it, is that it can be very effective to take a break from a period of intensive study. This break or "rest"
will break down the "affective filters" that have been preventing the learner from acquiring the language well.

This makes sense to me. Taking a break from time to time in a period of intense studying sounds like a good
idea. It would seem hard to be able to maintain for a long stretch of time an intensive immersion routine like that
of the Middlebury summer language program.

What I found really intriguing in leosmith's original post in polydog.org was the observation that after years away
from Spanish he found out that his comprehension ability of spoken Spanish on the TV had nearly doubled, i.e
from 50% (sic) to 90% (sic).

How could this be? I understand the idea of returning to the language at the level where one had left it, that is
without any loss. But here the observation is that after a few years of absence not only was there no loss, in fact
there was a vast improvement in listening performance. Let's say that this person had attained B2 listening
comprehension before the break and comes back three years later as C2.

I don't question leosmith's observations but I'm trying to figure out how this could work. The only way this is
possible is for the person to have in reality attained an implicit C2 level before taking the break but was forced by
the affective filters to perform at the B2 level. With the affective filters or bow wave lifted by the break the real
C2 level comes to the fore.

As various people have pointed out, it would seem better to not have any affective filters in place while learning.
If the learning or acquisition process can be made enjoyable then there is no bow wave build-up and the level of
performance increases steadily. Taking a break does not really make a difference.

Instead of taking years off to let things consolidate, in my mind it would be more efficient to simply continue
using the language, albeit not in a regime of intensive study. Indeed I think there is more to be said for breaking
down the affective barriers while continuously using the language.

This is the very observation emk makes in the last paragraph above: simply use the language in ordinary
activities without formal studying as such. Now, we all know that the repetition of daily use is a key element of
learning. So, instead of taking a break and waste time, it would be much more effective find a way to continue
consolidating and learning in a non-stressful environment without the affective barrier.
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Elenia
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Message 23 of 25

12 August 2014 at 10:10am | IP Logged

s_allard wrote:

As various people have pointed out, it would seem better to not have any affective
filters in place while learning.
If the learning or acquisition process can be made enjoyable then there is no bow wave
build-up and the level of
performance increases steadily. Taking a break does not really make a difference.

Instead of taking years off to let things consolidate, in my mind it would be more
efficient to simply continue
using the language, albeit not in a regime of intensive study. Indeed I think there is
more to be said for breaking
down the affective barriers while continuously using the language.

This is the very observation emk makes in the last paragraph above: simply use the
language in ordinary
activities without formal studying as such. Now, we all know that the repetition of
daily use is a key element of
learning. So, instead of taking a break and waste time, it would be much more effective
find a way to continue
consolidating and learning in a non-stressful environment without the affective
barrier.

This is also talked about in the summary of Leosmith's post

Quote:

To summarize some important points about the bow wave:

1) It’s caused by inefficient study. If you assimilate language quickly and
efficiently, you will have little if any bow wave.

2) Some things that cause inefficient study – too many hours per day, anxiety, self
doubt, boredom, etc

3) The more months or years you study, the bigger the bow wave.

4) The bow wave effect, or improvement you notice after a break, takes some time to
peak; the bigger the bow wave, the more time it takes. But it doesn’t last forever, and
the effect will diminish if you don’t start using the language again.

How to use this to our advantage. You can try to eliminate the bow wave. Obviously,
it’s better to study efficiently and make progress in a language quickly. You can do
this by reducing your affective filter. And a lot of time and energy these days goes
into people trying to reduce their affective filters. I have seen so many articles
telling me if I don’t have fun I’m doomed, and if I can’t relax and believe in myself I
will fail. But these articles, while well meaning, aren’t very helpful to me. I’m sort
of set in my ways, and I prefer to go through life without getting all bubbly and
bouncing off walls and stuff. There are good days and there are bad days, and accepting
that is a more useful goal than trying to drastically change my personality.

In the last paragraph, Leosmith does write that most learners will suffer from the bow
wave effect at some point, and suggests taking time off. Maybe, like me, you feel a
month or two off is quite a long break from language study. If I take a break from
French for a couple of months, I certainly can't say it improves my grasp of the
language, nor does it lessen my frustration. In this case, switching study modes and
methods might be more effective. However, like most things in language learning, this
is all very personal. Some people might need a complete break from a language to be
able to go back and enjoy their study and see improvements.
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montmorency
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Studies: Danish, Welsh

Message 24 of 25

12 August 2014 at 3:31pm | IP Logged

While I too don't question Leosmith's observations, it is an "n=1" observation.

It would be interesting to hear of other examples or counter-examples.

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