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Team Катюша - TAC 2014 - TEAM THREAD

 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log Post Reply
464 messages over 58 pages: << Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 32 ... 57 58 Next >>
Woodsei
Bilingual Diglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
United States
justpaste.it/Woodsei
Joined 3282 days ago

614 posts - 782 votes 
Speaks: English*, Arabic (Egyptian)*
Studies: Russian, Japanese, Hungarian

 
 Message 249 of 464
08 April 2014 at 5:55am | IP Logged 
From my own, experience, lots of reading of and listening to native materials(through
books, subtitles, internet, twitter, manga, audiobooks/anime/tv etc.) helped give me
some sort of intuitive sense of what sounds correct, and what sounds off. In Japanese,
I'd try to say something, and as soon as it leaves my mouth, I'm able to tell, most of
the time, whether or not I got the grammar correct, or used the right word in that
context. That said, not everyone has the time or energy to dedicate to complete
immersion. Looking up points as you go is a good way to pinpoint issues without turning
it into a grammar reference study, and once you get a point, you suddenly see it pop
everywhere, and the constant repetition will anchor it firmly in your subconscious. Or
you could be patient and learn it AFTER understanding and being comfortable with the
language, as we did with our own native languages.
I speak from the point of view of learning Japanese, though.
I picked up the Russian pronunciation, alphabet, and gender endings through focused
reading and listening, but I'm still a beginner in Russian, so down the road I might
need to look up points. Russian still has a ways to go.

I speak from the point of view of learning Japanese, though.

Also, andy warned that reading and writing early might ruin the naturalness of the
language being studied. I agree completely, if you're reading without accompanying
native audio in the early stages, or producing (creating) sentences when writing. But
if writing is simply copying out correct native text, and reading is accompanied with
audio, then I see no problem with the approach. That said, I didn't start writing
Japanese, or even copy out anything, for some time. I simply listened and read a lot.

What I did notice from my own native language experience, that corrections came mainly
through writing, not formal grammar study. Growing up in school, I had two separate
English classes, a reading one where we read stories and discussed them, and a writing
one, where we wrote passages and had our grammar corrected as we go, if we had any
mistakes. I guess emulating that with language learning would also work.

My personal take on this, ultimately, is that immersion is the absolute best way to
go, but if you need to look up rules or get corrected on Lang8, then that's fine. No
one has to be too rigid about anything. Although, I admit, I hate looking up
explanations and prefer to wait until I "get" it. Stupid, I know. But more enjoyable
for me. Explanations don't really clear up an issue, unless I have encountered it
through reading and listening many, many times. Yes, children learn that way, and it
takes them years, but I think as adult learners with the deliberate intent of studying
languages, we maintain more focus, and so we can learn the concepts faster than
children do. Then again, that's me speaking from my own experience.

Edited by Woodsei on 08 April 2014 at 5:58am

3 persons have voted this message useful



andy123
Newbie
Russian Federation
Joined 2803 days ago

14 posts - 19 votes
Speaks: Russian*
Studies: English, Spanish

 
 Message 250 of 464
08 April 2014 at 8:33am | IP Logged 
Thanks God, Woodsie just said all I wanted to, but could not say, because of my weak English. I can't
imagine to describe the topic more clearly, especially a way like this one, funny, but with deep meaning:

Woodsei wrote:
I hate looking up explanations and prefer to wait until I "get" it. Stupid, I know. But
more enjoyable

1 person has voted this message useful



Woodsei
Bilingual Diglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
United States
justpaste.it/Woodsei
Joined 3282 days ago

614 posts - 782 votes 
Speaks: English*, Arabic (Egyptian)*
Studies: Russian, Japanese, Hungarian

 
 Message 251 of 464
08 April 2014 at 9:37am | IP Logged 
@andy123: I'm glad I was able to express what you've been thinking well :)
1 person has voted this message useful



chokofingrz
Pentaglot
Senior Member
England
Joined 3674 days ago

241 posts - 430 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, German, Italian
Studies: Russian, Japanese, Catalan, Luxembourgish

 
 Message 252 of 464
09 April 2014 at 2:00pm | IP Logged 
I wrote a text for the April challenge. I wasn't sure of some things so I got a correction on Lang-8. Several mistakes on perfective/imperfective aspect choice. I don't find it very easy to think about ongoing actions and results when I'm talking about hypothetical situations in the conditional or future. Back to the lab again...


Я никогда не был в России. Я однажды хотел бы поехать в Санкт-Петербург. Говорят, что этот город - самый западный и европейский город России. Я не знаю много о российской жизни или Санкт-Петербурге, но хочу увидеть длинные, широкие проспекты, реку и мосты, и гулять в Летнем Саду.

Я послушал русскую песню, в которой пели о каменном всаднике, рядом с мостом. Это я также хочу посмотреть. Конечно, я тоже хочу посетить музей Эрмитаж, полный известных произведений искусства. Представляю, как я вхожу из холодного воздуха в удобное кафе и выпью чашку вкусного, горяачего чая из самовара.

Оттуда, я хотел бы проехать на поезде через Россию, словно в старых фильмах. Мне бы понравился этот опыт.


Question about the last sentence: they told me to use понравился instead of нравился. Is that because I'm in the future, or because some sort of result or ending is implied? I originally chose imperfective to emphasise the indefinite, ongoing nature of the enjoyment.
1 person has voted this message useful



Solfrid Cristin
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2011 & 2012
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 3819 days ago

4143 posts - 8863 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 253 of 464
09 April 2014 at 2:12pm | IP Logged 
chokofingrz wrote:
I wrote a text for the April challenge. I wasn't sure of some things so I got a correction
on Lang-8. Several mistakes on perfective/imperfective aspect choice. I don't find it very easy to think about
ongoing actions and results when I'm talking about hypothetical situations in the conditional or future. Back to
the lab again...


Я никогда не был в России. Я однажды хотел бы поехать в Санкт-Петербург. Говорят, что этот город
- самый западный и европейский город России. Я не знаю много о российской жизни или Санкт-
Петербурге, но хочу увидеть длинные, широкие проспекты, реку и мосты, и гулять в Летнем Саду.

Я послушал русскую песню, в которой пели о каменном всаднике, рядом с мостом. Это я также хочу
посмотреть. Конечно, я тоже хочу посетить музей Эрмитаж, полный известных произведений
искусства. Представляю, как я вхожу из холодного воздуха в удобное кафе и выпью чашку вкусного,
горяачего чая из самовара.

Оттуда, я хотел бы проехать на поезде через Россию, словно в старых фильмах. Мне бы понравился
этот опыт.


Question about the last sentence: they told me to use понравился instead of нравился. Is that because I'm
in the future, or because some sort of result or ending is implied? I originally chose imperfective to emphasise
the indefinite, ongoing nature of the enjoyment.


Me like :-) I think your Russian is a bit more advanced than mine (quite a bit probably :-) but I understood
practically everything - I only had to look up one word.
1 person has voted this message useful



andy123
Newbie
Russian Federation
Joined 2803 days ago

14 posts - 19 votes
Speaks: Russian*
Studies: English, Spanish

 
 Message 254 of 464
09 April 2014 at 2:31pm | IP Logged 
chokofingrz, "ПОнравился" is because of the future time. but anyway, "Мне бы понравился
этот опыт" sounds a little odd for me. it's like you 1000% sure you will like it !

I think we could say either "Думаю, мне БЫ понравиЛся этот опыт" or "Думаю, мне понравиТся этот
опыт".
2 persons have voted this message useful



andy123
Newbie
Russian Federation
Joined 2803 days ago

14 posts - 19 votes
Speaks: Russian*
Studies: English, Spanish

 
 Message 255 of 464
09 April 2014 at 2:54pm | IP Logged 
chokofingrz wrote:
Представляю, как я вхожу из холодного воздуха в удобное кафе и выпью чашку
вкусного, горяАчего чая из самовара.


or Представляю, как я вхожу C холодного воздуха в удобное кафе и ПЬЮ чашку вкусного, горячего
чая из самовара.

or Представляю, как я ВОЙДУ С холодного воздуха в удобное кафе и выпью чашку вкусного,
горячего чая из самовара.

tense must be the same
2 persons have voted this message useful



chokofingrz
Pentaglot
Senior Member
England
Joined 3674 days ago

241 posts - 430 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, German, Italian
Studies: Russian, Japanese, Catalan, Luxembourgish

 
 Message 256 of 464
09 April 2014 at 4:36pm | IP Logged 
andy123 wrote:

or Представляю, как я вхожу C холодного воздуха в удобное кафе и ПЬЮ чашку вкусного, горячего
чая из самовара.

tense must be the same


Thanks, my original version had войду and пью - it did not cross my mind that I would be mixing tenses, as I was concentrating too much on whether the entering and the drinking would be completed. (Entering - perfective since it would be completed as soon as I'm inside. Drinking - imperfective as it could go on indefinitely.)


1 person has voted this message useful



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