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Team Катюша - TAC 2014 - TEAM THREAD

 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log Post Reply
464 messages over 58 pages: << Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 31 ... 57 58 Next >>
Solfrid Cristin
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2011 & 2012
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 3817 days ago

4143 posts - 8863 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 241 of 464
06 April 2014 at 11:10am | IP Logged 
Mark, grammar most definitely can be learned that way, but it takes time. Children typically need 2-3 years
with constant correction. Give me two years of doing Russian only, and with someone correcting me all the
time, and I would not need any grammar rules either.

Otherwise, andy123, it is no problem to create the immersion input, but how do you get the most vital part,
which is where someone corrects your mistakes?

And I am not altogether convinced that being a native speaker is a fool proof solution either, since every
Russian teacher I ever had insist that Russians spend years on learning how to write properly, and many
never learn how to write absolutely correctly.
1 person has voted this message useful



Josquin
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 3327 days ago

2266 posts - 3992 votes 
Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish
Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian

 
 Message 242 of 464
06 April 2014 at 1:09pm | IP Logged 
Марк wrote:
but I don't understand why I'm always criticized when I write similar things.

It's not what you write, but the way you write it. You always start arguing and get very intense about questions of detail, e.g. whether to call a rule a spelling rule or a phonological rule. When somebody disagrees with you, you get even more intense and won't give up until you're proven right.

I think it's not too difficult to understand that this kind of behaviour leads to criticism. If you discussed the problem in a neutral, relaxed, and friendly way, nobody would have a problem with you, but I sometimes get the impression correct Russian pronunciation is a matter of life and death to you. Let me tell you, it's not!

If I got upset about every Englishman who is unable to distinguish between u and ü or every Frenchman who can't pronounce an h, I would probably already have had a heart attack. Perfection in a foreign language is the goal, but we will always make mistakes, even if we can tell apart ш from щ and know that и after ш is pronounced ы. But this is not the end of the world!

Of course, for a native speaker, these differences are trivial and everyone who can't produce them correctly sounds a bit silly, but that's something that both the foreigner and the native speaker have to live with.

This is not to say we shouldn't strive for perfect pronunciation, but it's merely human that we won't always reach that goal. And while listening and imitating work fine for learning pronunciation, grammar is way too complicated to learn it that way if we aren't in a total immersion situation.

Edited by Josquin on 06 April 2014 at 1:11pm

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andy123
Newbie
Russian Federation
Joined 2801 days ago

14 posts - 19 votes
Speaks: Russian*
Studies: English, Spanish

 
 Message 243 of 464
06 April 2014 at 5:00pm | IP Logged 
Solfrid Cristin wrote:
andy123, it is no problem to create the immersion input, but how do you get the
most vital part, which is where someone corrects your mistakes?

skype, as I said. I'm not trying to say it is very easy to organize an immersion way being at home. I'm only
saying it is possible.

Solfrid Cristin wrote:
every Russian teacher I ever had insist that Russians spend years on learning how
to write properly, and many never learn how to write absolutely correctly.


in my opinion, there is two way to study a native language, as always. one way - you already can write
about 99% correct (because it looks natural for you), but still you study hundreds of those rules to be sure
in that 1%, so you can proof yourself you're right. another way - just memorize that 1% and never learn
even one rule. of course you don't have to memorize all possible combination of all words, you just
already know in your mind that in this particular situation you have to write that way. it's like some sort of   
experience, or some sort of reflex, it comes from a lot of practice (at least you have to read very much).

for some people first way is much easy, for another - vice versa. I do not insist on either.
1 person has voted this message useful



Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 3539 days ago

2096 posts - 2972 votes 
Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 244 of 464
06 April 2014 at 7:52pm | IP Logged 
Josquin wrote:


I sometimes get the impression correct Russian pronunciation is a matter of life and death to you.

Your impression is wrong.
Josquin wrote:


If I got upset about every Englishman who is unable to distinguish between u and ü or every Frenchman who can't pronounce an h, I would probably already have had a heart attack. Perfection in a foreign language is the goal, but we will always make mistakes, even if we can tell apart ш from щ and know that и after ш is pronounced ы. But this is not the end of the world!

Of course, for a native speaker, these differences are trivial and everyone who can't produce them correctly sounds a bit silly, but that's something that both the foreigner and the native speaker have to live with.

This is not to say we shouldn't strive for perfect pronunciation, but it's merely human that we won't always reach that goal. And while listening and imitating work fine for learning pronunciation, grammar is way too complicated to learn it that way if we aren't in a total immersion situation.

This has nothing to do with me. I've never written that learners of Russian must have native-like accent. I've been always against the way textbooks explain it and I argued against those who defend the textbooks, and I have always given arguments.


Edited by Марк on 06 April 2014 at 8:12pm

1 person has voted this message useful



Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 3539 days ago

2096 posts - 2972 votes 
Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 245 of 464
06 April 2014 at 8:11pm | IP Logged 
Solfrid Cristin wrote:
and many
never learn how to write absolutely correctly.

No one learns. It is impossible to write bsolutely correctly. Russian has rather nasty orthograph and very complex punctuation.
1 person has voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 3190 days ago

5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 246 of 464
06 April 2014 at 8:24pm | IP Logged 
Textbooks are generally lacking in the
pronunciation department. Russian is no worse
off than French or Romanian in this regard.
1 person has voted this message useful



Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 3539 days ago

2096 posts - 2972 votes 
Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 247 of 464
06 April 2014 at 8:30pm | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
Textbooks are generally lacking in the
pronunciation department.

Russian textbooks often have detailed explanations of phonetics.
1 person has voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 3190 days ago

5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 248 of 464
06 April 2014 at 8:33pm | IP Logged 
The ones I have seen are marginally better
than the English ones. But not better than
other bases. I own one for Serbian which is
okay.


1 person has voted this message useful



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