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Team Катюша - TAC 2014 - TEAM THREAD

 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log Post Reply
464 messages over 58 pages: << Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 30 ... 57 58 Next >>
fabriciocarraro
Hexaglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
Brazil
russoparabrasileirosRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 3200 days ago

989 posts - 1454 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, EnglishB2, Italian, Spanish, Russian, French
Studies: Dutch, German, Japanese

 
 Message 233 of 464
04 April 2014 at 4:53pm | IP Logged 
Марк wrote:

But she understood well it was not just a spelling convention or a non-essential feature, didn't she? She realized these are two different sounds (phonemes) which distinguish words, didn't she?


Sure, but realizing it didn't make it any easier for her to be able to hear the difference or pronounce them correctly.

Марк wrote:
If you don't hear the difference between two sounds, you need to know well when they occur.


What does that even mean? If she had a text written "avô" and "avó" she would know what the words meant, but other than that the words are both oxytones...without context (like a personal pronoun or an adjective), she would never know.

A similar thing occurs for the word "soco". In IPA, "socu" means "a punch" and "sɔcu" means "I punch". In this case, you don't even have the diacritics to help and they're both paroxytones.

If what you mean is that one should rely on the context to figure out this differences in speech, I agree, but if someone would just say the words without context, she wouldn't know which was which.
2 persons have voted this message useful



Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 3541 days ago

2096 posts - 2972 votes 
Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 234 of 464
04 April 2014 at 8:02pm | IP Logged 
По-английски меня не понимают, напишу на русском. Половина решения проблемы - это ее осознание. Если ты знаешь, что, скажем, в английском shit и sheet произносятся разные гласные, ты
1. либо игнорируешь это
2. либо начинаешь тренироваться, чтобы освоить эти гласные.
А если ты считаешь, что разницы нет и ты все делаешь правильно, то и делать ничего не будешь.
Если ты начинаешь слышать какую-то разницу между звуками в каких-то словах, то очень важно понимать, это тебе кажется, это особенности произношения данного человека, качество записи или реальная фонологическая разница.

Edited by Марк on 04 April 2014 at 8:03pm

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Josquin
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 3329 days ago

2266 posts - 3992 votes 
Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish
Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian

 
 Message 235 of 464
04 April 2014 at 8:38pm | IP Logged 
Mark, if you want to discuss phonetics, please open a special thread about it. This is our team thread and not your private playground.

And while I understood most of your message, it's unfair to write in Russian, because a lot of people won't be able to understand what you have written. So, please refrain from discussing your private hobby-horses in this thread, especially if you can't do it in English.

I appreciate your concern for correct pronunciation, but you can get very intense about this matter, so please stop it.

Thank you!

Edited by Josquin on 05 April 2014 at 12:11pm

3 persons have voted this message useful



andy123
Newbie
Russian Federation
Joined 2803 days ago

14 posts - 19 votes
Speaks: Russian*
Studies: English, Spanish

 
 Message 236 of 464
05 April 2014 at 9:42pm | IP Logged 
fabriciocarraro wrote:
We, foreigners, usually learn how to read and write in Russian MUCH earlier
than even trying to speak it.


may be that is a global mistake. children never learn rules first. at the beginning they listen a lot, then
they try to copy pronunciation, and only after about five years they try to write. at that moment they know
how exactly every word sounds like.

if you'll try to change order of stages, to place reading and writing first (especially reading by rules) -
there is a huge danger to create a unique, your own language in your mind.

as one man said, if you will study rules of some language - well, you will know those rules at the end. but
if you want to know THE LANGUAGE, to feel it - you have to listen a lot and then speak a lot. at the end
you will FEEL what's wrong without calculating by rules. it is the only natural way.

for example, I myself never knew which words are exceptions in my native language, but I speak and write
it pretty well.

don't get me wrong, please. if some one likes to learn the rules - it's ok, so many people, so many
interests. it's a huge work and I respect such people. the only point of my words is to warn of a danger of
creating "your own Russian". sorry for bother you if you all already know it.
2 persons have voted this message useful



Josquin
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 3329 days ago

2266 posts - 3992 votes 
Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish
Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian

 
 Message 237 of 464
05 April 2014 at 11:34pm | IP Logged 
Nobody really knows the rules of their native language unless they have learned them at school. However, when it comes to learning a second language, learning by listening and imitation won't be enough and it will take much longer than learning by grammar rules. Plus, most of us are not in the privileged situation to hear spoken Russian all day, so we don't really have a choice.

Children take years to learn their native language. They have adult native speakers around them all the time, so they get lots of input and correction. Adults simply don't have these resources and this much time, so they need rules. It takes a lot of time, before you really get a feel for the language and can do without rules.

If I were to figure out the intricacies of Russian morphology by simply imitating what I read and hear, it would take me forever to master them. A simple rule like "There is always и and never ы after г, к, and х" makes choosing the correct ending much easier.

So, the solution can't be learning like children do, but combining approaches: Learn the rules and get as much input as you can. This way, you will achieve the best results. In the end, our goal is to replace conscious rules by a feeling for what's natural, but I sometimes even need rules for using correct German, so we can't do completely without them.

Edited by Josquin on 05 April 2014 at 11:36pm

2 persons have voted this message useful



Solfrid Cristin
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2011 & 2012
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 3819 days ago

4143 posts - 8863 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 238 of 464
06 April 2014 at 8:06am | IP Logged 
I am a huge fan of learning like a child or by immersion. In my opinion it far exceeds any other method. The
problem, like Josquin says, is that for us learners who sit at home, that method is not really available to us. If I
had enough time and money on my hand I would have lived in Russia for a few months - one of my great
sorrows in life is that I was not exposed to Russian at an early age - but I have a job and a family to support,
and am not able to follow my desires. So the second best option is a combination of learning grammar and
getting as much input as possible. But the only languages where my grammar is near perfect is French and
Spanish where I did not learn any grammar until after I was already fluent. The problem is that I cannot
reproduce the circumstances which led to that.

1 person has voted this message useful



andy123
Newbie
Russian Federation
Joined 2803 days ago

14 posts - 19 votes
Speaks: Russian*
Studies: English, Spanish

 
 Message 239 of 464
06 April 2014 at 8:40am | IP Logged 
I don't think the "childlike" style is impossible in our homes. I'm trying it for Spanish now. 90 lessons of
Pimsleur for start from zero, podcasts, adapted audiobooks for now plus movies and skype talks in the
future. we'll see if it possible or not may be in a year or two.
1 person has voted this message useful



Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 3541 days ago

2096 posts - 2972 votes 
Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 240 of 464
06 April 2014 at 10:04am | IP Logged 
Josquin wrote:
If I were to figure out the intricacies of Russian morphology by simply imitating what I read and hear, it would take me forever to master them. A simple rule like "There is always и and never ы after г, к, and х" makes choosing the correct ending much easier.

So, the solution can't be learning like children do, but combining approaches: Learn the rules and get as much input as you can. This way, you will achieve the best results. In the end, our goal is to replace conscious rules by a feeling for what's natural, but I sometimes even need rules for using correct German, so we can't do completely without them.

fabriciocarraro suggests to learn Russian pronunciation rules by imitating what you hear.
Why can't be grammar learned like that?
I completely agree with your post, but I don't understand why I'm always criticized when I write similar things.


1 person has voted this message useful



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