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Team Катюша - TAC 2014 - TEAM THREAD

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milesaway
Triglot
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Russian Federation
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 Message 209 of 464
02 April 2014 at 8:10am | IP Logged 
Essentially, yes. Imperfective would be: She cried reading the book. Perfective: Having
read the book.

There's an expression of sorts Честно говоря which would translate as honestly speaking,
or frankly. Speaking is a verbal adverb here.
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chokofingrz
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 Message 210 of 464
02 April 2014 at 6:04pm | IP Logged 
Okay I have something for the challenge. It came up in class the other day.

In the beginning I learned about hard and soft adjectives, which end in -ый or -ий respectively (or sometimes -ой, which are also hard). And it was good. And then we had петербургский, which looks soft, oh so soft... so I wrote in my homework in the prepositional case "в петербургскем университете". Soft style. My teacher said, that's wrong, it's петербургском (trust me it just is), but she could not explain why it contradicted the adjective tables.

After the lesson we both traced it back to the spelling rule "after к, you must never write ы, always и". Fair enough, but I did not see how any such rule could apply to ком and кем. So I discovered that петербургский, русский, исторический et al. are not soft adjectives, but hard ones in a cunning disguise. Being hard, they take the hard endings -ого, -ому & -ом (G,D & P cases) most of the time, but switch to the soft endings -ий (Nom.) and -им (Instr.) when the к rule dictates it.

Those sly devils. I now have a photocopy from my teacher which categorises these as "mixed adjectives" - to be learnt alongside the hard and soft types. Whereas other books never mention the term "mixed" and just say everything is either soft or hard, but remember the spelling rules. Other sneaky ones on my sheet include какой (exception каким in Instr, and all its plurals), большой (same thing), and хороший (all soft, except for -ая and -ую instead of -яя and -юю in fem. sing.)

I'm now going through sheets with a marker pen. Does anyone know some more sneaky "mixed grill" adjectives I can look out for, in particular based off letters other than к & ш ?

Edited by chokofingrz on 02 April 2014 at 6:05pm

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Марк
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Russian Federation
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 Message 211 of 464
02 April 2014 at 9:10pm | IP Logged 
chokofingrz wrote:


After the lesson we both traced it back to the spelling rule "after к, you must never write ы, always и".

There is no such rule. Well, of course there is no difference between velars in adjective declension. тихий and строгий are declined in the same way. There is a rule that in endings and suffixes of nouns and adjectives after sibilants under the stress о is spelt, e elsewhere. Exception: masc. nom. sing. under the stress - o, и in unstressed position. ы is never written after sibilants. So, хороший is a pure hard declension.

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Josquin
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 Message 212 of 464
02 April 2014 at 9:45pm | IP Logged 
Irregular genitive plural with "zero" ending

I'm writing my March challenge about the genitive plural. While the rules for the formation of the genitive plural are quite complicated themselves, there are some types of nouns that don't even adhere to these rules.

First of all, the normal rules for the genitive plural. The appropriate endings are:

-ов: Masculine nouns ending in a hard consonant
-ев: Masculine nouns ending in -й (and, because of spelling rules, -ц)
-ей: Masculine nouns ending in a soft consonant (-ь) or a sibilant (ж, ч, ш, щ)
       Feminine nouns ending in a soft consonant (-ь)
       Neuter nouns ending in -е
-Ø: Feminine nouns ending in -а/-я, -ия
      Neuter nouns ending in -о, -ие, -ье

The zero-ending group may have orthographical adaptions (-ь/-й) and occasional fleeting vowels.

However, there are some masculine nouns which don't follow these rules and have a zero ending as well. They're mostly nationalities or military terms:

башкир, грузин, румын, турок, солдат, партизан: for all of these, the genitive plural is the same as the nominative singular

болгарин, татарин, господин: these lose the -ин suffix in the plural, so their genitives are: болгар, татар, господ.

Often, measuring units also have a zero ending in the genitive plural after cardinal numbers:

амрер, ватт, вольт, герц

It seems to me there is no system for learning these nouns, so they're truly irregular and have to be memorized word by word. Fortunately, most of these words aren't very common, so this is nothing one should worry too much about. It's just another piece in the gigantic mosaic, which is Russian morphology.

Edited by Josquin on 03 April 2014 at 4:18pm

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Solfrid Cristin
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 Message 213 of 464
02 April 2014 at 10:57pm | IP Logged 
Soooo, I have decided that I am going to write about my all time favorite word class: THE ADVERBS!

And why is that my favorite word class? Well that is simple enough, they have no cases, no times, no aspects
and no genders. A dream category of words if you ask me.

As we all know the adverbs are used to describe a verb, or they tell us about time or place.

The majority of the Russian adverbs are made from adjectives and end on -o ( a few exceptions in -e, due to
the spelling rules).


Хороший - хорошо
Приятный -приятно
Глупый -глупо


Adjectives which end in -ский have adverbs ending in -ски, and "adverbial phrases" which indicate
nationality
are formed from по and adjectives ending in -ский

Практически
По-русски
По-испански

Adverbs of time and place may end on almost anything, included o. The most common ones are:

Когда- when
Тогда- then, at the time
Уже- already
Ещё- still, yet
Долго- for a long time
Давно- a long time ago
Недавно- recently

Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 02 April 2014 at 11:22pm

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chokofingrz
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 Message 214 of 464
03 April 2014 at 12:00am | IP Logged 
Марк wrote:

There is no such rule.


You are going to confuse me a lot if you say there is no such rule. All the Russian-learning materials I have looked at talk about three spelling rules. One of these is about using и (never ы) after the 7 letters к, г, х, ж, ш, щ, ч. That is what I'm going with. Can you clarify what you meant?
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Марк
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Russian Federation
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 Message 215 of 464
03 April 2014 at 11:33am | IP Logged 
chokofingrz wrote:
Марк wrote:

There is no such rule.


You are going to confuse me a lot if you say there is no such rule. All the Russian-learning materials I have looked at talk about three spelling rules. One of these is about using и (never ы) after the 7 letters к, г, х, ж, ш, щ, ч. That is what I'm going with. Can you clarify what you meant?

Like many learners of Russian, you forgot that Russian is not only written but spoken too. Furthermore, it was first spoken and then written and the whole Russian writing system (the alphabet, all the rules of graphics and orthograph) are created to reflect the spoken language, to reflect the pronunciation. You know three spelling rules? Open a textbook for native Russian speakers: there are hundreds of spelling rules there, but you won't find your rules. We, Russians, have enormous problems with our orthograph, we spend many years at school to learn it, so I know what I'm talking about. We learn жи ши ча ща чу щу. Why? Well, ж and ш are hard, it's natural to spell ы after them, but the rule learnt in the first grade says we should write жи ши. ч щ are soft, it's natural to spell я ю after them, but the rule learnt in the first grade requires to write ча ща чу щу. Later at school we learn three words брошюра (pronounced брошура), парашют (pronounced парашут), жюри (pronounced жури or жюри). Why on Earth should I write чы if I never pronounce it?! There is no even the hard ч in my language! And what is щы? ши? к, г, х do not require special rules at all. ы, и and other letters are spelt strictly according to the pronunciation. The rule is: Write what you hear! If you can hear the difference between Russian sounds, you will never make a mistake here. маникюр is pronounced маникюр, Архыз is pronounced Архыз, книги is pronounced книги. It has nothing to do with spelling.
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Solfrid Cristin
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2011 & 2012
Senior Member
Norway
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Studies: Russian

 
 Message 216 of 464
03 April 2014 at 12:15pm | IP Logged 
Марк wrote:
chokofingrz wrote:
Марк wrote:

There is no such rule.


You are going to confuse me a lot if you say there is no such rule. All the Russian-learning materials I have looked at talk about three spelling rules. One of these is about using и (never ы) after the 7 letters к, г, х, ж, ш, щ, ч. That is what I'm going with. Can you clarify what you meant?

Like many learners of Russian, you forgot that Russian is not only written but spoken too. Furthermore, it was first spoken and then written and the whole Russian writing system (the alphabet, all the rules of graphics and orthograph) are created to reflect the spoken language, to reflect the pronunciation. You know three spelling rules? Open a textbook for native Russian speakers: there are hundreds of spelling rules there, but you won't find your rules. We, Russians, have enormous problems with our orthograph, we spend many years at school to learn it, so I know what I'm talking about. We learn жи ши ча ща чу щу. Why? Well, ж and ш are hard, it's natural to spell ы after them, but the rule learnt in the first grade says we should write жи ши. ч щ are soft, it's natural to spell я ю after them, but the rule learnt in the first grade requires to write ча ща чу щу. Later at school we learn three words брошюра (pronounced брошура), парашют (pronounced парашут), жюри (pronounced жури or жюри). Why on Earth should I write чы if I never pronounce it?! There is no even the hard ч in my language! And what is щы? ши? к, г, х do not require special rules at all. ы, и and other letters are spelt strictly according to the pronunciation. The rule is: Write what you hear! If you can hear the difference between Russian sounds, you will never make a mistake here. маникюр is pronounced маникюр, Архыз is pronounced Архыз, книги is pronounced книги. It has nothing to do with spelling.


And you seem to forget that although we would like to, we do not start writing Russian from a base of being fluent in spoken Russian like you are :-) And because we do not always hear the differences in the Russian sounds (and because there are exceptions), such rules that you may not need, we do need.



Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 03 April 2014 at 12:16pm



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