C2 vs native speaker (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

C2 vs native speaker
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Iversen
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Message 33 of 47

19 December 2013 at 10:29am | IP Logged

s_allard wrote:

In sum, one can't compare native proficiency and C2 proficiency. They are apples and oranges.

I agree, and I can also see that our discussion here corroborates the view that the specific skills of a native speaker (swearing, knowing the local celebrities, having a genuine accent instead of a hotch-potch accent etc.) aren't necessarily the same as those measured by the CEFR tests. Apples and oranges indeed. My problem is that I would want to be tested on pear shaped skills.

Edited by Iversen on 19 December 2013 at 10:39am
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montmorency
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Message 34 of 47

19 December 2013 at 10:40am | IP Logged

Medulin wrote:

There are people who have a C2 certificate who can't translate many
everyday expressions like ''My shoelaces have come undone'' .

:-) I have to admit that until I watched "Berlin: Alexanderplatz" recently, I didn't
know the German for "shoelaces" (not of course that I claim to be C2 or anything like
it, but would certainly have failed the "shoelace test" (among others). (The "hero"
becomes a shoelace street-merchant ("Straßenhändler" apparently) at one point; sorry if
that's a spoiler...).

I notice that there are about 5 ways of saying "shoelaces", two of them regional, and
another one for leather shoelaces (Schnürriemen).

Anyway, I suppose one could get away with "Meine Schnürsenkel kam los", but I don't
know if that is the usual expression. (Yes, I realise that's just an example ...)

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Lugubert
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Message 35 of 47

19 December 2013 at 11:35am | IP Logged

Another case of different levels: I have a friend who is perfectly to fairly orally fluent in seven languages - from three different language families!

Sufficiently good writing in English and Swedish, but not writing proficient in Vietnamese or Modern Standard Chinese ("Mandarin"). Reads and speaks French and Spanish, less good at reading Vietnamese or MSC. L1 Cantonese.

I hesitate before the risk of being regarded as just bragging, but I think my English skills at least fulfil C2 criteria: neck-breaking punning that natives approve of, loads of (sparingly used) colloquialisms, an accent that often puzzles native listeners ("Can't guess in what part of Britain you were born"), and a fair knowledge of local politics, garbage regulations etc.
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culebrilla
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Message 36 of 47

19 December 2013 at 1:35pm | IP Logged

s_allard wrote:

In my opinion, this debate got off on the wrong foot because there is the implicit assumption that the CEFR C2
and native proficiency are comparable levels on the same scale, as if native proficiency were a sort of C3 or C4..
This is fundamentally wrong. C2 cannot be compared to native proficiency.

First of all, keeping in mind its origins and purpose, the CEFR model, as a system of assessment of foreign
language skills, is strongly biased towards the educated user. When you get to the C-level, there is the
underlying assumption that you have a certain level of education and can handle relatively sophisticated topics.

Secondly, there is no scale of native proficiency. Native speakers have varying levls of education and these are
reflected in their linguistic skills. There are illeterate native speakers. But they are still native speakers. Many
native speakers may have difficulty passing a C2 or even a C1 examination. So what? Many educated native
adults would probably have difficulty passing secondary school examinations in certain subjects because it has
been many years since they have taken tests.

Thirdly, it should be pointed out that the CEFR does not mention phonetic proficiency. One has to be intelligible
and we can assume that accent improves as one goes up the scale, but there is no attempt to assess accent.

I mention this last point because one of the most striking differences between C2 level second language speakers
will probably be accent. C2 candidates are not graded on accent, and I doubt that any such candidates have an
accent close to native. On the other hand, native speakers will usually have an accent that indicates a regional
and or a social class origin.

But that is just part of the story. The fundamental difference between a native speaker and a C2-level foreigner is
not really so much linguistic as what I would call cultural. Being born, raised and educated in a language means
that you have encoded a vast store of experiences that the second language student can never match.

When two native speakers of approximately the same age and the same city or area meet, they will speak to each
other in a form of coded language that outsiders cannot understand because of the many implicit references that
the speakers use continuously. We all do this when we meet friends that we haven't seen in a long time. This is
why casual conversations in a room full of native speakers can be very challenging for even the very advanced
foreign speaker.

As an example of all this, all native speakers have quite a good knowledge of colloquial language and slang,
including vulgar, taboo, and obscene language, Everybody can swear in their language even though not
everybody does. Much of this language is used in jokes and humour. How many C2 graduates can tell dirty jokes
in the language?

In sum, one can't compare native proficiency and C2 proficiency. They are apples and oranges.

+1. My English is spoken at an A2 or B1 level most days and almost everything I say with friends is either a reference to the Chappelle show, Anchorman, or maybe South Park. Sometimes there is a Lonely Island reference if we're lucky.

Then in other situations it turns into a highly specialized C2 level that the vast majority of native English speakers don't understand.
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beano
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Message 37 of 47

19 December 2013 at 3:03pm | IP Logged

montmorency wrote:

Anyway, I suppose one could get away with "Meine Schnürsenkel kam los", but I don't
know if that is the usual expression. (Yes, I realise that's just an example ...)

I'm sure my wife once said to me "deine Schnürsenkel ist aus"

That's one big advantage of being married to a native speaker. You learn a ton of everyday expressions that never appear in textbooks.
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Josquin
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Message 38 of 47

19 December 2013 at 10:32pm | IP Logged

@montmorency + beano: "Die Schnürsenkel" is plural. In the singular, it's "der Schnürsenkel".

I would express the sentence in question as: "Meine Schnürsenkel sind offen/lose."
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aokoye
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Message 39 of 47

20 December 2013 at 2:02am | IP Logged

Serpent wrote:

s_allard wrote:

How many C2 graduates can tell dirty jokes in the
language?

If you are comfortable with dirty jokes in your L1, you can start
telling them at A1.

If by that you mean directly translating a joke in your L1 to a joke in the target
language then I suppose one could depending on vocabulary. However if you're talking
about telling to joke in the person's target language in such a way that the same message
is accurately being conveyed then I think your above statement is very incorrect.
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trance0
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Message 40 of 47

05 May 2016 at 5:07pm | IP Logged

Josquin wrote:

@montmorency + beano: "Die Schnürsenkel" is plural. In the singular,
it's "der Schnürsenkel".

I would express the sentence in question as: "Meine Schnürsenkel sind offen/lose."

Or Meine Schnürsenkel sind auf(gegangen). Meine Schnürsenkel haben sich aufgelöst.
I am not sure about Meine Schnürsenkel sind aus. I think you probably
misunderstood the word auf as it sounds very similar to aus.

Edited by trance0 on 05 May 2016 at 5:26pm

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