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C2 vs native speaker | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | Advanced Level | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4315 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes  Studies: German | Message 25 of 47 18 December 2013 at 11:03am | IP Logged | ||
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I am never really sure what "native" means in these conversations.
I read yesterday that 20% of US citizens are functionally illiterate and another 30% are classified as having minimal reading ability. So if we were to say native ability in reading what would that mean in a US context? None of these people would presumably be regarded as C2 in their own language. At least, they wouldn't be able to pass a written CEFR test, so at least in some cases native level language skills fall far below C2. I think this makes the point that the CEFR levels are theoretical definitions of ability, while natives speak at all sorts of levels. I suspect that a fair few natives actually speak at C1-level in their language not at the C2-level. It's not possible to speak at a level higher than C2, because C2 is defined as "mastery or proficiency" in the language. It's an idealized norm, and doesn't directly map to real world speakers of a language. My long-term goal in German is to speak/read at the same level as the top 20% of natives, but I am still going to be C2 (and will have been for probably years before I reach that goal, if ever). Edited by patrickwilken on 18 December 2013 at 11:26am 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6485 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 26 of 47 18 December 2013 at 11:30am | IP Logged | ||
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Subtle or not subtle, Lugubert (welcome back, by the way) has a point, namely that you can be exceedingly good on parameter and nothing to write home about on another. In this case it is the parameter written versus spoken languages which is relevant, but it could also be the parameter active versus passive. Modesty normally leads people to classify their languages after their weakest skill, but then the information about a high level on another set of parameters is lost.
And as PatrickWilken points out, so is information about a low level in for instance the reading and writing skills if you just accept 'native' as the top level on any skill. From an earlier thread I remember that the CEFR scales also include an evaluation of the ability to make logical and comprehensive statements in the target language. Logical? I can think of a fair number of my compatriots who can't even think in logical terms and even less formulate logical statements, and whose knowledge about the world mainly is restricted to American pop- and filmstars and the things their friends write on Facebook. How would they be classified on a written CEFR test where the judges can't hear them? Edited by Iversen on 18 December 2013 at 11:42am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4450 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 27 of 47 18 December 2013 at 4:05pm | IP Logged | ||
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There are people who have a C2 certificate who can't translate many everyday expressions like ''My shoelaces have come undone'' .
A translation test should be included in C1 and C2 tests, and the direction of the translation should be: from your L1 into the target language. Edited by Medulin on 18 December 2013 at 4:08pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5212 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 28 of 47 18 December 2013 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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In my opinion, this debate got off on the wrong foot because there is the implicit assumption that the CEFR C2
and native proficiency are comparable levels on the same scale, as if native proficiency were a sort of C3 or C4.. This is fundamentally wrong. C2 cannot be compared to native proficiency. First of all, keeping in mind its origins and purpose, the CEFR model, as a system of assessment of foreign language skills, is strongly biased towards the educated user. When you get to the C-level, there is the underlying assumption that you have a certain level of education and can handle relatively sophisticated topics. Secondly, there is no scale of native proficiency. Native speakers have varying levls of education and these are reflected in their linguistic skills. There are illeterate native speakers. But they are still native speakers. Many native speakers may have difficulty passing a C2 or even a C1 examination. So what? Many educated native adults would probably have difficulty passing secondary school examinations in certain subjects because it has been many years since they have taken tests. Thirdly, it should be pointed out that the CEFR does not mention phonetic proficiency. One has to be intelligible and we can assume that accent improves as one goes up the scale, but there is no attempt to assess accent. I mention this last point because one of the most striking differences between C2 level second language speakers will probably be accent. C2 candidates are not graded on accent, and I doubt that any such candidates have an accent close to native. On the other hand, native speakers will usually have an accent that indicates a regional and or a social class origin. But that is just part of the story. The fundamental difference between a native speaker and a C2-level foreigner is not really so much linguistic as what I would call cultural. Being born, raised and educated in a language means that you have encoded a vast store of experiences that the second language student can never match. When two native speakers of approximately the same age and the same city or area meet, they will speak to each other in a form of coded language that outsiders cannot understand because of the many implicit references that the speakers use continuously. We all do this when we meet friends that we haven't seen in a long time. This is why casual conversations in a room full of native speakers can be very challenging for even the very advanced foreign speaker. As an example of all this, all native speakers have quite a good knowledge of colloquial language and slang, including vulgar, taboo, and obscene language, Everybody can swear in their language even though not everybody does. Much of this language is used in jokes and humour. How many C2 graduates can tell dirty jokes in the language? In sum, one can't compare native proficiency and C2 proficiency. They are apples and oranges. Edited by s_allard on 18 December 2013 at 5:26pm 17 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4489 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 29 of 47 18 December 2013 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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Summa summarum, what does that concretely mean for this debate? That we are all wrong?
That we can't discuss it? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| albysky Triglot Senior Member Italy lang-8.com/1108796Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4170 days ago 287 posts - 393 votes Speaks: Italian*, English, German | Message 30 of 47 18 December 2013 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | ||
I am inclined to think that you are right 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6379 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 31 of 47 18 December 2013 at 6:19pm | IP Logged | ||
2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5212 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 32 of 47 19 December 2013 at 5:16am | IP Logged | ||
Heavens to Betsey, please read what I wrote. I did not say that we are all wrong or that we can't discuss the topic. In fact, I even pointed out what I think are major differences. The point that I tried to make is that we are talking about two very different things phenomena. As long as we keep that in mind, we can discuss all we want. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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