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Formal to familiar "you" | ||
Tags: Polite/Informal Forms | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Cultural Experiences in Foreign Languages |  | |
| vogue Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4049 days ago 109 posts - 181 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, Spanish Studies: Ukrainian | Message 9 of 20 25 April 2013 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | ||
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In Spain, at least in my experience, tu is almost always used. I have never actually heard anyone in Spain use usted, but I've never been in a formal business setting in Madrid either. Strangers on the street used 'tu' with me. Interestingly, In Honduras it was the opposite. The 'tu' form was considered quite rare. I was a teacher, and even then it was not considered the norm to use 'tu' with our students. Tu seemed to be reserved for family only, and even with the young kids on the street we used 'usted.' This had been super confusing for me, because while I had been living in Spain I always used tu. Now, I almost always use usted.
I don't have experience with French, but from my limited experience, my peers told me to use "tu" not "vous" right away. They actually chuckled at me using "vous" and told me I sounded too formal and a little silly. Likewise, I don't have much experience with Italian, but when I used the formal form, even with peers and friends while in Palermo, no one corrected me. This may however be because they know I'm still learning the language, and their tolerance for me was quite high. I feel, in general, there's a little more leeway for foreigners on these matters, but I'd always lean towards the formal if you're unsure. Believe me, people will tell you if you sound silly! Edited by vogue on 25 April 2013 at 12:41pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| agantik Triglot Senior Member France Joined 4430 days ago 217 posts - 335 votes Speaks: French*, English, Italian Studies: German, Norwegian | Message 10 of 20 25 April 2013 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | ||
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I spent two weeks in Italy last summer and was surprised (being French) to hear that the formal "Lei" is hardly
ever used, except in shops and restaurants. A total stranger tripped on my foot and said "scusi", not "scusa". 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| vogue Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4049 days ago 109 posts - 181 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, Spanish Studies: Ukrainian | Message 11 of 20 25 April 2013 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | ||
I could be wrong, but I believe scusi IS the formal. So this would be consistent with "formal with strangers." Edit: I should clarify, the formal in this case because it's an imperative when the conjugation is "flipped" if you will. Edited by vogue on 25 April 2013 at 2:53pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| agantik Triglot Senior Member France Joined 4430 days ago 217 posts - 335 votes Speaks: French*, English, Italian Studies: German, Norwegian | Message 12 of 20 25 April 2013 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | ||
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@ vogue : grazie, mi sono sbagliata!
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4851 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 13 of 20 25 April 2013 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | ||
First, you need to think what to use. Second, I don't always know how I should be adressed. I wonder why English abandonned the singular form thou in favor of the plural dative form you. Edited by Марк on 25 April 2013 at 7:19pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| osoymar Tetraglot Pro Member United States Joined 4531 days ago 190 posts - 344 votes Speaks: English*, German, Portuguese, Japanese Studies: Spanish, French Personal Language Map | Message 14 of 20 25 April 2013 at 7:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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Not to belittle the challenges in the above mentioned language, but in Japanese there are
multiple words for "I," multiple levels of "-san" applied after a person's name, multiple pronouns for "you" (the most commonly taught of which, anata, is basically never used), passive used as honorific, entirely separate honorific forms, receiving forms, causative-receiving forms, and a dozen other things I'm not thinking of right now, all of which are affected by age, status, gender, relationship to the conversation partner, personality, who else is listening, and whether the speaker is in the real world or in a pirate comic book. Luckily expectations are low for foreign speakers. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4463 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 15 of 20 25 April 2013 at 9:28pm | IP Logged | ||
Except in Belgium, where formal and informal are reversed: dank je wel (formal) dank u wel (informal) In colloquial Belgian Dutch, people prefer gij, uw, u to forms imported from Holland (which are used only in formal written Belgian Dutch). Edited by Medulin on 25 April 2013 at 9:29pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| TixhiiDon Tetraglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5259 days ago 772 posts - 1474 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese, German, Russian Studies: Georgian | Message 16 of 20 25 April 2013 at 11:36pm | IP Logged | ||
Yes, all of this is true, and another big difference in Japanese is that the progression from formal to casual language that happens with vous/tu, Sie/du etc. happens much less frequently, if at all. The kind of language you use is determined mostly by age and status, not by how friendly you are with each other, so there rarely comes a point where someone says "let's stop using "desu" now". This applies even to kids, who are supposed to address kids in the year above them at school using polite forms. This means that, in general, relationships in Japan are "vertical" rather than "horizontal". It also leads to the concept of "amae", where the person of lower status in a relationship acts the role of the wide-eyed innocent while the person with higher status takes on the role of the wise but benevolent teacher. It is possible to have deep lifelong friendships in Japan without ever switching to casual Japanese, but this linguistic and cultural rigidity does I think also create a society in which individuals feel isolated, unable to relate to others, and unable to express their feelings. It is possibly also the reason why Japanese society tends to appear so "childish" to western observers. 5 persons have voted this message useful |
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