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Why don’t you write a perfect course? | ||
Tags: Alexander Arguelles | Textbooks | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Lessons in Polyglottery |  | |
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5657 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 17 of 78 28 April 2009 at 7:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
I have used a number of brand-name products and all had one thing in common: their material was very boring! What is not boring? What is interesting? Well, of course that varies for different people. Maybe it would be worth asking people what they would like to see as subject material. I would like to see science, history, geography (countries) and current news. I think the most effective language learning mechanisms are those based on current news. News is always interesting. The BBC has a very good and comprehensive service. I have not used it because I am native English-speaking. I'd like to hear from anyone who does use this service from the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/ Deutsche Welle also has an apparently excellent German language learning service: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/0,2142,2547,00.html Anyone learning German from DW? Radio Netherlands World Service (RNW) has excellent Dutch material but there is no Dutch language learning focus. I have offered RNW some suggestions and encouragement to provide a language learning service, so far without success. But I am still working on that. I think the essential element of language learning based on news is daily target-language parallel text and audio. So I guess what I am saying is that a static, CD-ROM or book language course is one thing. But current, dynamic, interesting, live on-line language learning based on popular news, science, history, geography and similar sites would be excellent. Learners would see it much less as "work" but more as "enjoyment". Many would easily adapt to doing it every day as an integral part of their language learning and learning in general. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6996 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 18 of 78 28 April 2009 at 7:58pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Professor. I think it is exciting that someone is getting your input on a language learning offering. I have three ideas that could be combined or used independently:
1) Great book centric - book selected is independent of target language. E.G. Aristotle could be used for languages other than Ancient Greek. I'm sure that your experience with Great Books would lead you to those works that are broadly appealing. 2) Parallel Listening recording (one track in one learning language, the other in the target language. In one way this would be like Assimil in that the same recording is used for multiple learning languages when the target language is the same. I.E. whether the student was learning say English or French, the same recording could be used for both. With a computer it is probably possible to do this without much difficulty for several languages. Having the ability for the learner to create his or her own CD with the two appropriate language tracks would be nice. After some time, the student who was going to learn English, Spanish, French, Italian and German might change up some of the parallel recordings. E.G. they might start out with an English/Spanish recording of The Brothers Karamazov and a few years down the road be using an French/Russian recording of the same work. 3) Flexible course based upon learning style. In one of your videos you divided learners into 3 categories and to some degree you changed the order in which material was used based upon the learning preference of the student. Please forgive any oversights or inaccuracies in my notes. What I am trying to show is how the same materials can be used by all learners. In a small way this would be like Linguaphone where the learner is given multiple books. I mention some specific courses, but that is only to give other readers an idea of something similar to what I believe you mentioned in your video. There may be a component of the course which would not be used by every student, depending on their leaning. Analytical type: 1) Short Grammar Overview (Essential Italian Grammar for instance). 2) Grammar Translation Methods (two) Learn by doing type: 3) Pattern Drills (somewhat like FSI). 4) Pimsleur like Learn by observation: 5) Assimil/Linguaphone like course annotated parallel text with audio (two) Then the learner may select from the courses such as: Analytical type: Starts with grammar overview, than grammar/translation (both sets), then annotated parallel text, pattern drills. Doer type: Starts with Pimsler like audio only course, then Pattern Drills, then short grammar overview, then annotated texts with audio. Observer: Starts with both sets of annotated parallel texts with audio, then Grammar/Translation, then Pattern Drills. P.S. The problem with Assimil's Using Spanish is that the translations into English are frequently non-sensical. A problem with the old FSI courses is that the pauses after the prompts are too long. Edited by luke on 28 April 2009 at 8:02pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| carlonove Senior Member United States Joined 5777 days ago 145 posts - 253 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian | Message 19 of 78 29 April 2009 at 12:26am | IP Logged | |||||
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Hi Professor,
I've found that one of the biggest flaws with even "good" language products is that they don't tell the student how to actually use the materials most effectively. If you add organizational instructions similar to those in your most recent shadowing video (blind shadow these chapters on day 1, then shadow them with the native text day 2, shadow with target text day 3, etc) but included timetables, approximate exercise durations when applicable (recite the following sentences in the target language, if you can't grasp the content after 20 minutes reread the grammar explanations), your courses would instantly be more useful than everything else on the market. We often hear "It takes 'x' amount of hours/months/years to learn 'xyz' language". If exercises were actually broken down and tangibly presented in some kind of daily/weekly/monthly(yearly?) calendar/goal-oriented format, it would subtract a lot of time from 'x' and also provide structure for students who are motivated but lacking in self-discipline. The science of time management is almost as important (if not moreso) to language learning and polyglottery as the presentation and content of the material, yet it is rarely given the attention it deserves. Please give us the perfect language line, but show us how to use it properly. Thanks, --carlonove 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5657 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 20 of 78 29 April 2009 at 12:27am | IP Logged | |||||
This is confusing, along with several other sentences in this post. Assuming you mean a stereo recording with one language on one side and a second language on the other side, then I would be against such an system. I find it much easier and effective to listen to a target language with both ears. I think it has something to do with how the brain processes hearing from both ears. Much harder with only one. Besides, I fail to see the utility of the mixed tracks. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Satoshi Diglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5614 days ago 215 posts - 224 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English Studies: German, Japanese | Message 21 of 78 29 April 2009 at 2:08am | IP Logged | |||||
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I had two ideas that would make a language course great. The thing is... they contradict themselves.
First, and I think it has already been mentioned, is to have always the same text for all languages, allowing you to make all possible combinations. Also added benefit for aspiring polyglots who would have tremendous familiarity with the text after two or three languages, somewhat speeding up the process of absorbing the new one. My second idea is: use native texts. I find the whole fake dialogue approach really boring. Let us read real material. Also, build up so that by the end of the lesson you are reading real literature (no need for classics, though it would be appreciated. Modern best-sellers are fine enough). It would be a very hard book to compile, but the most interesting one to read, at least to me. Also, what is the objective of such courses? I am sick of "get by in INSERT-COUNTRY"-like books and learning how to ask how much something is. That kind of stuff you will just pick up naturally. I would really appreciate a academic course aimed at helping people reach fluency to read literature, scientific papers, etc. And, brainstorming a little more, what do you think of inserting cultural notes into the very texts in the language? Not so useful for most European languages, but it would sure be nice to read about how Japanese people value humility in Japanese. Specially if there is some kind of short story/anecdote that explores such cultural subtleties. And, as always, even more so if such short stories are real native material. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Kugel Senior Member United States Joined 6329 days ago 497 posts - 555 votes Speaks: English* | Message 22 of 78 29 April 2009 at 3:01am | IP Logged | |||||
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I think many language programs lack academic rigor; and if the language program is academically rigorous, then it's usually meant only for advanced students, not beginners. It would be great if there could be a language course that surpasses the level of difficulty of 2nd or 3rd year students who followed the traditional curriculum, yet is designed from the beginner up. Naturally, one wouldn't be able to outperform the students who've spent a year or more abroad. Just being able to test out of 2-3 years of language classes by self-study would be great. This I think should be the litmus test, successfully passing academic exams via self-directed learning. I'm afraid anything less is sort of verging on being that dilettante, who has delusions on successful studying. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with superficially dabbling in languages, but too many language programs cater to this group.
I hope that such a future language learning lineup is academically rigorous, yet also designed for the beginner. Is it possible to create a language program that surpasses the first two years of study at Columbia University? You mentioned in your bio that a vintage Spanish course being used for a few months was on par with your German at the time. This is impressive: an old language program for self-study rivals an Ivy League school's German curriculum. It would be really interesting to compare the abilities of students for Latin or Ancient Greek, as no one can spend a year abroad about 2000 years ago. Thus, the success of the student would depend entirely on the study materials and study habits. Would it be possible to create such a course that allows the student to bypass the 2-3 years of these classical languages, hopefully moving on to the more important classes that involve composition and reading the Great Books? As for things not being boring, I think talking about Philosophy would be the ticket. How can one be bored when talking about the greatest questions in life? Who knows what kind of lively conversations the characters in the course could have after, say, discussing whether or not other people exist. It would be hilarious. Imagine striking up a conversation with odd people in history like the countess Bathory or Melville's timid Bartleby. I hope that the course isn't going to be G rated. Barts Edited by Kugel on 29 April 2009 at 3:49am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5657 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 23 of 78 29 April 2009 at 4:55am | IP Logged | |||||
Excellent post. Very interesting food for thought.
I'm not sure if you meant passing second language exams, or more generally, passing an academic exam on some academic subject, in a second language. I think the latter would probably be easier and more interesting. However, I suspect that the on-line opportunities are rather limited, except for expensive distance education courses. Perhaps some forum members know of some. I'd be interested in any such courses in Dutch. I have an interesting physics textbook in Dutch meant to do just what I described above. It is called "Nederlands voor Buitenlanders - Natuurkunde", (Dutch for Foreigners - Physics) using the so-called Delft method. This book is from 1988. I don't know if there are newer versions of such books on physic or other subjects. Your idea of discussing philosophy and the great questions of life and knowledge is a very good one. It requires a very good language level. One approach would be to discuss Bill Bryson's "A Short History of Nearly Everything". It is available in most major languages. I have the English and Dutch versions and they are very parallel. The book covers many major questions about life and the universe, and is easy to read. Maybe a multi-language book club on this book on this forum. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jimmymac Senior Member United Kingdom strange-lands.com/le Joined 5944 days ago 276 posts - 362 votes Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, French | Message 24 of 78 29 April 2009 at 10:50am | IP Logged | |||||
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For me, the most effective Assimil lessons are the ones where there is some sort of story to follow, rather than a selections of idioms. In fact, my ideal course would be one long and interesting story building in difficulty, and accompanied by good recordings from professional actors and grammar notes on each page.
Jimmy McIntyre 1 person has voted this message useful |
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